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Re: [Re: Dr. Bakker and Dinosaur intellegence (was: Fwd: ]



owner-dinosaur@usc.edu wrote:
> Larry Dunn wrote:
> > 
> > From: "Jonathan" <spockjr@email.msn.com>
> > 
> > >  Crocodiles do in fact hunt cooperatively on occasion ( I have seen
> > >video of this)
> > 
> > I too have seen footage of numerous crocodiles bringing a zebra into the
> > water, but as far as I can tell the first crocodile to latch onto the
> > zebra did not do so knowing that it would receive assistance from other
> > crocodiles.  In other words, if no other crocodiles had been around, the
> > attacking croc would still have behaved in precisely the same manner.
> 
> Aside from dogs and primates (maybe hyaenids and a few others), I don't
> think many animals cooperate in the matter you describe.  They don't act
> "knowing that [they] would receive assistance from other" members of their
> species; they more likely act based on how confident they feel of making the
> kill, with this confidence level being raised by the presence of others.
> Others join in knowing they'll get a share of the spoils if they help out.
> Pack hunting doesn't require much coordination to be effective.
============================================================================================================================================
Check out my full reply earlier in this thread on crocodile social life. I'll 
say this much. Unlike anatomy and physiology wheich has to do some work in 
order to converge with an unrelated animal, behaviour is easily convergent. 

Check out Bees, ants, and termites. Forget the missing vertebrae thing. In 
their social community the individual will do it's job (or asigned job if you 
want to call it that) and if it's gets hungry or thirsty it will literally 
"ask" another ant/bee/termite for some food. This is usually done with antennae 
carresses on the head. this is usually acted upon and the other insect will 
regurgitate food into the hungry one. Now exactly what is that first insect 
getting out of giving the hungry one food? It's seems to be pretty well proben 
tht social insects are given their orders through pheromones, so there is no 
need to keep the loyalty. Is there?

As for that whole grey matter bit. Well I'm sure you know my standing on 
intelligence. Still if we want to use the standard brain to body ratio you 
might find it interesting that those sharks that had the most bird sized 
intelligence were the scalloped hammerheads (_Sphyma lewini?_) Which if you 
remember are the same sharks that school and pack hunt (cooperative 
hunt...whatever) 

Also in the other post I stated how crocs make dams with there bodies to corral 
fish. This is much the same as how cetaceans do it. Now you stated that 
cetaceans are one of the few animals that truly pack hunt. So does this mean 
that crocs should be viewed in the same light? (I could accept that) or that we 
should lower marine mammal IQ? (good luck)  

One more thing. Isn't it strange that everytime we someone gets into a debate 
over whether or not dromeosaurs or carnosaurs could pack hunt , the debate soon 
leaves dinosaurs and goes into living animals. Makes it kinda hard to stick to 
the subject at times. An interesting observation nonetheless.

Just some stuff to chew on till next time (saying the list sends this out 
*please*)

Archosaur J




> > >(there are also cooperatively hunting birds, desert hawks routinely 
> > >hunt hares together
> > 
> > I understand that the hawks that do so (red tails?) only do it in
> > marginal environments (ie, they don't show the same mutual attack
> > strategies in better stocked enviromnents) and that this is not
> > altruistic.  It's more an example of:
> > 
> > "I saw it first"
> > "No, I saw it first"
> 
> You could look at it like that.  You could also look at it like:
> 
> "Food is scarce.  If you help we'll be more likely to catch our prey, and
> half a meal is better than none."
> 
> This scenario leads to less energy wasted on conflict and requires very
> little in the way of brainpower; it could actually all be done on instinct.
>  
> > Altruism in this case would be *not* to strike at the hare the other
> > dino-bird is going after.
> 
> That's one kind of altruism.  Another is giving part of your meal away to
> secure cooperation in the future (it is altruistic because you are giving
> something to another while denying it to yourself; in the short run, it's
> altruistic).  Again, this requires very little in the way of brainpower.
> It's just a good trick critters with a minimum amount of grey matter can
> figure out when need be.
>  
> Chris


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