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RE: Follow-up on Lions of Savuti

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Chris Campbell [SMTP:Sankarah@ou.edu]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 1999 4:44 PM
> To:   Stewart, Dwight
> Cc:   dinosaur@usc.edu
> Subject:      Re: Follow-up on Lions of Savuti
> "Stewart, Dwight" wrote:
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Chris Campbell [SMTP:Sankarah@ou.edu]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 1999 10:11 AM
> > > To:   dinosaur@usc.edu
> > > Subject:      Re: Follow-up on Lions of Savuti
> > >
> > > >            Hmmm... Well so much for using that as an analogy for
> > > theropods
> > > > predating adult sauropods. :-)
> > >
> > > Presumably they'd have less trouble with juveniles.  Which is what I'd
> > > expect them to go for, in any event.
> >         @@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
> > 
> >            No, I don't.  With modern prey/predator relationships (when
> the
> >prey animal is many X's larger than the predator) it is the very young, 
> >the very old, the sick, trapped, or injured who are selected.  
> I don't understand how it is you're disagreeing with me.  I did say
> juveniles, after all.  I'd expect them to go for other things as well,
> but juveniles will be lots more common than the very old, the sick, or
> the trapped or injured.  Heck, wildebeest manage to keep a stable
> population despite the fact that five hundred thousand of the critters
> are born every year.  Most of those wind up as food during their first
> year.

        Oh, sorry: I'm NOT disagreeing.  I meant "no" I believe juveniles
were probably 
        the exception, & thus preyed upon.
> >It's simply not in the best interest of a predator to risk serious injury
> >attempting to take down an enormous prey animal.  
> I don't think anyone's claimed otherwise.
> > Now, I'm NOT saying that predators never act out of desperation, but
> these 
> >don't represent their normal hunting patterns.  A species survives as a 
> >successful predator in large part because they are good at exploiting
> their 
> >niche in the environment.
> Again, I haven't seen anyone claim anything to the contrary.
> > > We can't prove anything at all.  All of this is speculation, and can
> never
> > > be anything but.  We still don't know what was up with the fighting
> dinos
> > > in Mongolia, for example, and even though we know a hadrosaur healed
> wounds
> > > from a tyrannosaur bite we still don't know how common active
> predation on
> > > hadrosaurs by tyrannosaurs was.  We never will know these things, and
> the
> > > best we can do is make reasonably informed guesses.
> > 
> >            Yes, I'd say I agree with that - in the main.  Now, IF we
> find
> > substantial evidence of cooperative hunting techniques among carnivores
> > dinosaurs, I would find the "preying on VERY large animals" idea more
> > palatable.
> I don't see why they'd ever prey on VERY large animals, when juveniles
> of all sorts were no doubt readily at hand.  We know at least some of
> these guys started out quite small, so there's plenty of food for
> everyone.
> However, just because they'd go after smaller animals doesn't mean
> cooperative techniques wouldn't be useful.  If the herbivores in
> question tended toward herds, for example, cooperative tactics of some
> sort might be exceedingly useful.  Since issues of size, intelligence,
> and physical capability have all been addressed (i.e., claiming that
> cooperative behavior was impossible is no longer tenable), the question
> remains wide open.  There's no evidence showing therapods hunted
> cooperatively, and there's no evidence showing they didn't.  Cooperative
> tactics were certainly a possibility, and given the wide range of
> therapod types I imagine the behavior showed up at least occasionally. 
> Beyond that, we can't say anything for sure.

           Agreed.  I believe the evidence is sparse to prove OR disprove
cooperative hunting.
        But, cooperative hunting is a tried & true strategy.  And, then,
there are degrees of
        cooperation; from the quite matter-of-fact efforts of crocodiles to
the very structured
        techniques of some toothed whales.  
           Sort of on this subject: wasn't a possible juvenile Tyrannosaur
found near "Sue"?
        Does anyone have any additional information regarding that?