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Re: [Re: [Re: paper request]]

Hey everyone,

I usually don't say too much on the list, just sit back and listen (read,
anyway) and every once in a while post a question.  Now it seems to me that
the purpose of this list is to spread scientific information about
dinosaurs.  I joined this list to learn more about dinosaurs or add any
insights that I might have (which isn't very often, in my case), and I
assume that everyone else on here joined to do the same - now if I am wrong
in this assumption, someone please correct me (nicely :-).  It also appears
clear that Caleb Lewis was only asking for help in learning more about this
wonderful science. Sure he may have gotten a little overzealous in his
quest, but which one of us in our excitedness hasn't asked for too much?

In his latest post (as of 29 Dec) Caleb wrote:
   I have two ideas:

1.) set up a site like Amazon.com where you can go to pay for the
papers,and the money goes to the people who published it (Nature, JVP, etc., etc.)


2.) Someone set up a Internet business site where the owner goes out,
and, for a fee, makes copies of papers and mails them to people.

Wouldn't either way be legit?

To which Mary Kirkaldy replied: No. On no. 1, you would have to have an agreement with those
publishers,rather like a VAR (value added reseller) arrangement. You would be talking paying licensing fees, etc., to the authors and publishers. The cost to possibly get such a contract would be logically set high because you would be impinging upon the sales of their publications.

On idea no. 2, you could do that until the lawyers for the publications notify you that you are being sued. I could not copy my issue of Time
each week and mail it out to my "subscribers" because all of the material is copyrighted. Most publications specify that one copy may >be
made for _personal use_.  Similarly, I could not copy a video of >Disney's
"Dinosaur" and sell those copies privately.  Same thing.

Sorry, but unless the material is already available on the web, you are
are going to have to a) go to the library, b) subscribe, or c) convince someone who has the paper that you have not been able to get it in any other way and would be willing to pay him for the time and effort it took him to get the paper originally. There is no free dinosaur lunch.

As I had posted previously today--and Mike Keesey wrote--abstracts may >be put on the web, along with urls. That will alert interested persons >as to what has been published and where.

Now with due respect to all persons involved, especially Caleb Lewis, Mary Kirkaldy and Mike Keesey, who appear to be the major constituants of this thread, I would like to add my 2 cents.

To Mary:
I don't think that Caleb was wanting to do the above mentioned things, but
rather I believe he was suggesting that these would be good ways of making
scientific papers more available.  And I believe on #2 he was referring to
someone WITH PERMISSION from the publishers to sell copies of the papers.
You suggested three ways to get the papers off-line: library, subscribe, and
get them from someone else.  These are definately the best ways to get the
papers, unless: 1) the closest library where scientific publications are
available is 3+ hours away (as in my case); 2) you can't possibly afford to
subscribe to all the publications you want to, nor would even begin to know
how or where to subscribe; 3)You just don't have the "connections" to get
someone else to help you get the papers.
Which is where the list comes in...making connections with other
paleontologists so they can help you and vice-versa.  I suppose that Caleb
had thought that he had made the connections necissary to request papers
from list members, instead it seems he got a "severe tounge lashing" (to
quote WWD).

To Caleb:
You made a huge, impossible request, and paid the price.  I for one
understand your plight and your desire and hunger for knowledge.  I
appreciate your apology, and thought it was very professional of you to
admit your mistake and try to change (something other list members should
think a little bit more about).  Following your apology you tried to explain
your point, and still you were met by unbending opposition...
all I can think to say to what I've read of this thread is when someone
posts something, anyone who is responding should try to see what the other
person is saying and then answer, not just jump on their case for a previous

To Mike:
We all appreciate your willingness to help forward the science of dinosaur
paleontology on-line, and I for one enjoy the dinosauricon and look forward
to the new stuff!

I'm sorry to rant and rave and go off about such an off-topic topic, but it
makes me a little upset that a young person searching for help in gaining
knowledge is met by such hard-headed opposition.  All of us are here for the
same reason: a love for dinosaurs and a yearning to gain and share knowledge
about them.  Knowledge doesn't come free, it doesn't even come cheap.  But
we as scientists, and especially in this field of paleontology, should be
willing to share what we have WITHOUT getting mad at someone who is asking
for help.
I know first hand that there isn't a lot of money to be found in
paleontology, and that hasn't scared me off yet.  What is starting to scare
me is that some of us are after the dollar more than the science...
and which one is more important?  Now I know that you need money to advance
science, but when the money becomes the driving force and not the science, I
suggest a different field (perhaps politics, there's obviously enough money
Thanks to anyone who took the time to read this rant, and I would like to
request that replies to this occur off-list so that we can get on with the

God bless,

Bronson Barton

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