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Re: Status of _Caudipteryx_

Ken Kinman wrote:

<Just how closely flying lemurs are related to any particular groups of
bats is controversial (although both groups are regarded as belonging
to a single clade Archonta (along with primates and tree shrews, as
well as plesiadapiforms if one wishes to separate them from primates).>

<However, I would say that the vast majority of groups of organisms are
primitively or primarily flightless, and I'm sure even Dinogeorge would
agree that this applies to ornithischian and sauropodomorph dinosaurs.
I don't understand how you can say that there is no such thing as a
primitively flightless organism or primitively flightless dinosaurs.>

  I'm sorry, but in an evolutionary scenario, you can know an end
product, only in the present sense. We could be primitively aquatic,
but you wouldn't say this unless you _knew_ of a product that became
aquatic that stemmed from _us_. You going to tell me that whales are
primitively flightless? At some point, any organism _can_ be
flightless, but I've already expounded on _a posteriori_ statements.

  As a statement of evolution, one cannot say something is primtiive
without an evolutionary sequence that demonstrates transformation or
acquisition. Also, it would not be recommendable to assume a state that
an animal is not at, such as colugos (flying lemurs) being somehow
primitively flightless because for some reason a related group of
mammals became flighted. Huh? What does this say about the colugos? It
means nothing about flight except that it does not fly, like a relative
does. Supposedly bats and colugos are each others closest relatives, or
megachiropterans and colugosa (Volantia). It is not "primitively
flightless," it is flightless, full-stop.
> Eric's 
> statements perhaps deserve to be challenged, but this seems to be a
> very odd 
> way of doing it.  Therefore, I am more inclined to challenge your
> statements 
> than his.
>                        ------Ken Kinman
> ********************************************************
> >From: "Jaime A. Headden" <qilongia@yahoo.com>
> >Reply-To: qilongia@yahoo.com
> >To: dinosaur@usc.edu
> >Subject: Re: Status of _Caudipteryx_
> >Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2000 20:28:55 -0800 (PST)
> >
> >Eric Lurio (at ELurio@aol.com) wrote:
> >
> ><Not neccessarily. The so-called "flying lemurs" are primitively
> >flightless, and I've read that they may be closely related to fruit
> >bats.>
> >
> >   There is no such thing as a primitively or "primarily" flightless
> >organism, because no animal trends towards a state with the intent
> to
> >reach it, such as the ability to fly. Appling a possible conclusion
> >doesn't mean the a posteriori conclusion applies to an organism.
> Okay
> >... dinosaurs are not primarily flightless, and no dinosaur will be,
> >even birds.
> >
> >   End rant,
> >
> >=====
> >Jaime A. Headden
> >
> >   Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhr-gen-ti-na
> >   Where the Wind Comes Sweeping Down the Pampas!!!!
> >
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Jaime A. Headden

  Where the Wind Comes Sweeping Down the Pampas!!!!

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