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Re: [Re: paper request]

Since this topic seems to have a clear cut dichotomy of opinion (and no 
apparent end) it's time for me to chime in. The following comments are not an 
indictment upon the originator of the remarks to which Tracy and I separately 
respond to and at least for me, my comments are more an indictment of the 
"state of affairs"  in general. 

I whole heartedly agree with Tracy to wit he opined,

>  Ah yes, the great internet and everything should be free on it for 
>  So people can cut articles and post them without regard of copyrights. This
>  is one reason why I don't have a site.

It all boils down to this increasing (and increasingly annoying) trend  
towards the need for _instant_ gratificatoion_. Many  people these days, want 
everything handed to them on a silver platter. It is symptomatic of the decay 
of our culture towards fat, lazy and stupid! Never mind doing the foot work 
or shedding the blood, sweat and tears RESEARCHING or _working towards a goal 
just whine loud enough and long enough and maybe someone will hand it to you. 
The Internet is a tool with which to communicate and to _conduct_ research. 
It is not as many now seem to believe, a panacea for the lazy or the cheap.

>   I
>  can`t see how going through stacks of printed journals could possibly be
>  "good for you"!

Pesrsonally, I love rummaging through libraries and stacks of journals to the 
point of information overload. The fact is that doing this adds up the $$ 
quickly also helps one to learn to _prioritize_ and to _focus_ more clearly 
on the problem at hand. I am an older student with a wife children, bills, 
mortgage and now student loans to pay. Do you think it's any easier for me? 
Time is an even more limted quantity than money is. I can't get to the 
library a fraction of the amount of time that I'd like to so I have learned 
to network and be creative in obtaining that which I need for my work. This 
passion of mine has cost me dearly but the rewards are so worth it.

>  How else are you going to find articles? Or even articles that you
>  didn't even think about? I've walked the stacks for years and will
>  constantly find articles that I want in volumes I hadn't thought about
>  looking in before.

Exactly! I find this is so even with my own personal library of journals 
(i.e. JVP, Geology, Geotimes, and Scinece).  Furthermore, careful attention 
to the _BIBLIOGRAPHY_ of such papers often creates another list of refs to 
find. Just like the WWW, it is a seemingly never ending process. But that's 
the fun of it, pursuit of knowlege.

>   OK,...perhaps  if we`re going to continue living in the
>  past, and college students will continue to have to do it this way for 
>  to come but it certainly isn`t progress, and the absence of progress seems,
>  (to me), not good.>   I
>  can`t see how going through stacks of printed journals could possibly be
>  "good for you"!

A typically myopic and selfish attitude but considering events of the last 
decade But what else is new?  If immediate satisfaction is not obtained, it 
must not be "progress" , or it's "unfair" or "predjudicial"  etc.! Thats BS! 
Hell, if this  (the cost of doing "science" was _easy_ and _cheap_ then of 
what value is the "science" that results. Scientific papers are not glorified 
versions of highscool book reports. They schould be culminations of 
_research_ conducted over the period of many months or even years. The goal 
is not about getting an "A". It should be  a cogent and concise manuscript 
(or cooperative work) that clearly demonstrates using the scientific method 
(remember that?), concepts, results theories etc. (or conveying NEW concepts, 
theories, methods etc.), which can be independantly reproduced!  The "grade" 
received is directly proportional to the level of competence and confidence 
demonstrated by the paper in addition to the above. This "grade" is reflected 
not by A's and B's  but by the fact that such papers are frequently cited by 
and usually largely accepted  by your peers (who also have done the footwork 
necessary to know about the subject they and you write about) . Therein lies 
your "grade". It was not a culmination of freebies. Time, money and long 
hours of _work_ are the prime ingredients to getting to the publication 
stage. Publication can and often leads to getting research money. A positive 
feedback loop is created rather than a purely negative one.

>  y to publish articles, to write, to
>  research, so everyone needs to j
>  Living in the past? It takes moneust say, hey, I don't need money to do
>  research I'll just put it all on line and GIVE it away. Nope, it ain't 
>  happen. If the researchers have to do it, the people who want it need to do
>  it also. There are country's who don't have the money to do it, should they
>  go broke just for the internet?

It also takes time and money to have someone digitize, create and maintain 
the computers, data and websites which adds to this unseen cost just so 
someone can have a freebie in almost no time!

>  Perhaps a compromise would be for all libraries with computers to have
>  access to these papers. These institutions reimbursing the journals for the
>  priviledge. Perhaps they in turn could charge on a 25 cent per page basis.
>  Maybe these journals would generate more income for themselves, if they 
>  access more available to people like me who live in small towns.
With individual page charges ranging into the hundreds of dollars per page, 
how would a lousy quarter help? Why not _you_ , (sensu lato and directed to a 
particular "you") spend the 10 cents or so per page it costs to Xerox the 
article yourself?  How about doing what all of us do; from the lowest 
undergrad to the most successful PhD, visit libraries and Xerox the articles 
yourself (keeping in mind recent discussions on copyright laws), get friends 
and acquaintances who have access to journals your library does not and ask 
them to copy a paper for you on the condition you'll reimburse them for 
xeroxing and mailing?  Like baseball cards, trade with people who may have a 
paper that you want for one you have and they need and vice versa. BUY it 
outright. Ask nicely of the author of a paper for a reprint. This is usually 
the cheapest and surest way of getting a copy, often for free. Failing all 
this, offer some other form of exchange or reimbursement. NETWORK!  (notice 
the second syllable?).  This list has a plethora of members who are doing 
this as we speak. I am one of them.

>  Research should be investigating what`s out there as far as subject matter.
>  It shouldn`t be figuring out how to obtain material that is known to exist!


>  People now a days, what it all with just a click.
>  Tracy

How unfortunate!

A simple search of the DML archives would reveal many links to freebies 
posted by its members. I've bookmarked most of them over the years. Many 
journals at least offer free abstracts of articles and some even allow for 
free download of articles for a limited period. 

Here's a very good example with access to MANY journal titles published by 
Elsevier Science. 

Electronic Content - http://www.elsevier.com/login
Free online access to electronic content and information including 
full text articles of a selection of Elsevier Science journals that 
you or your organisation subscribe to or are entitled to.

ContentsDirect - http://www.elsevier.com/locate/contentsdirect
The free e-mail service which delivers Elsevier Science book and 
journal tables of contents directly to your desktop.

Online Sample Copies - Free, unlimited access to sample copies of 
Elsevier Science journals. 

For information on our full range of products and services, visit 
the Elsevier Science website at:

There are others but I leave that to the individual to find for themselves.



Thomas R. Lipka
Paleontological/Geological Studies