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Re: Hominidae expanded!?



Previous classifications using "hominidae" were paraphyletic.  Finally, the
definition has changed!  I don't know about others, but I'm glad.

-Demetrios

----- Original Message -----
From: "Ken Kinman" <kinman@hotmail.com>
To: <dinosaur@usc.edu>
Sent: Friday, March 23, 2001 4:19 PM
Subject: Hominidae expanded!?


> Mike,
>       I haven't been following primate classification for a while, but I
> never thought the cladists would dump the gorilla and chimpanzees in
> Hominidae.  I thought maybe they would recognize separate families for
> gorilla and for chimps, but this really takes me by surprise.  I wonder
when
> the Arizona Tree of Life adopted this?
>       Both Family Hominidae and the term hominids has obviously been
> expanded, and all references in the previous literature to hominids and
> pongids is going to be unnecessarily confusing.  Come to think of it, they
> will be confusing in all future literature as well, because most workers
> will continue to use Hominidae sensu stricto, and put gorillas and chimps
in
> Pongidae (as has always been done).
>       How depressing.
>                      ------Ken :-(
> *******************************************************
> >From: "T. Mike Keesey" <tmk@dinosauricon.com>
> >Reply-To: tmk@dinosauricon.com
> >To: Adam Britton <abritton@wmi.com.au>
> >CC: <dinosaur@usc.edu>
> >Subject: Re: Dinosaur Books and Movies
> >Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2001 01:39:20 -0500 (EST)
> >
> >On Fri, 23 Mar 2001, Adam Britton wrote:
> >
> > > > No, since we're not descended from chimpanzees.
> > >
> > > No but they are close relatives. I was driving at the idea that
despite
> > > anatomical similarities with chimpanzees, orangutans etc, we are still
> > > classed as humans. However, it wasn't a very good example for two
> >reasons:
> > > 1. humans descended from a common ancestor with apes and 2. the
> >resolution
> > > was inappropriate: you'll simply point out that we're all still
classed
> >as
> > > primates.
> >
> >It's not a single common ancestor, either -- we share a more recent
> >ancestor with the African apes (gorillas, chimpanzees, bonobos) than with
> >orangutans, and gibbons are outside the great apes + humans clade.
> >
> >--Hominoidea
> >   |--Hylobates (gibbons)
> >   `--+--Pongo (orangutan)
> >      `--Hominidae
> >         |--Gorilla (gorillas -- obviously)
> >         |--Homo (us)
> >         `--Pan (chimpanzees & bonobos)
> >
> >(Or is _Hominidae_ Clade(_Pongo_ + _Homo_)? I can never remember....)
> >
> > > Ok, so we classify "birds" and "dinosaurs" within the "Dinosauria".
> >Still, I
> > > think that modern group of mainly volant, feathered critters should be
> > > within a subgroup "birds" to separate them from another subgroup of
> >mainly
> > > terrestrial, non-feathered critters called "dinosaurs". Hence birds
can
> >be
> > > called "dinosaurs" in the same way that humans can be called
"primates",
> >no?
> > > Forgive the simplistic thinking, but personally it helps me (if
nothing
> > > else) to create a token division between two groups with quite
different
> > > ecologies. [that reads like I'm being sarcastic, but I'm not really!]
> >
> >Simplistic or not, that is absolutely correct! Phylogenetic
> >classifications regard _Aves_ as a clade within _Dinosauria_, just as
> >_Homo_ is a clade within _Primates_ (well, not everyone agrees that
genera
> >should be converted to clades, but _Homo_ is within _Primates_
> >nonetheless). It's still a clade, but it isn't separated from its
> >ancestors. (And the modern clade, _Neornithes_, is within _Aves_ -- and
> >hence, by extension, within _Dinosauria_).
> >
>
>___________________________________________________________________________
__
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