[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index][Subject Index][Author Index]

Re: Waiter, there's an ammonite in my chicken (Re: Sauroparental care)



I allready thought there ws something strange about that
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Phil Bigelow" <bigelowp@juno.com>
To: <dinosaur@usc.edu>
Sent: Tuesday, December 23, 2003 10:10 PM
Subject: Waiter, there's an ammonite in my chicken (Re: Sauroparental care)


> 
> Either I joined the thread late and therefore don't know the context, or
> some list members have been getting in to the holiday punch early!
> 
> "Amniote", folks.  It's "amniote".  ;-)
> 
> <pb> (who'll be sippin' the stew in due course)
> --
> 
> 
> On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 14:02:11 -0500 Graydon <oak@uniserve.com> writes:
> > On Tue, Dec 23, 2003 at 01:21:13PM -0500, John Bois scripsit:
> > > On Tue, 23 Dec 2003, Graydon wrote:
> > > > On Tue, Dec 23, 2003 at 08:46:16AM -0500, John Bois scripsit:
> > > > > On Mon, 22 Dec 2003, Graydon wrote:
> > > > > But the bracket is important.  How do you rate such brackets?  
> > I
> > > > > imagine the bracket is strong enough for you to agree that
> > > > > sauropods had red blood without any direct evidence.
> > > >
> > > > That's not the bracket.  That's 'common descent from an 
> > ammonite
> > > > ancestor'.
> > > 
> > > I thought the bracket in this case was, then, ammonites and 
> > birds.
> > 
> > Birds *are* ammonites.  Haemoglobin as the means of oxygen transport 
> > is,
> > like the tetrapod skeleton, ancestral.
> > 
> > A bracket is a way of saying something about likelihood when you 
> > don't
> > have any evidence.  In the case of 'red blood', we do have evidence 
> > from
> > the genes that code for the stuff; they're pretty much the same 
> > across
> > everything that bleeds red.  That means it evolved once and got 
> > copied
> > into descendants.  Supposing that sauropods evolved a novel form of
> > oxygen transport then violates parsimony.
> > 
> > > > Talking about the phylogenetic bracket to set a rough, doubtful, 
> > range
> > > > on probable behaviours is a very different thing that looking at 
> > common
> > > > descent for basics of biochemical composition, and much less 
> > confident.
> > > 
> > > Common descent is what makes any bracket relevant.  And, at some 
> > level, at
> > > some future time, hypotheses regarding the biochemical nature of 
> > parental
> > > investment may be testabl (e.g., shared parental investment genes 
> > in both
> > > birds and crocs).
> > 
> > That's still not evidence they made it into sauropods (or
> > ornithsicians).  They'd have to be essentially the *same* genes, 
> > which
> > is monumentally unlikely given that the range of parental care
> > behaviours is large.
> > 
> > > > > Parental care isn't as strong of course--but it _is_ strong.
> > > >
> > > > It's a very tenuous inference.
> > > 
> > > How is it tenuous if within the bracket it is almost universal?
> > 
> > Because you're ignoring size effects; "parental care" isn't an
> > independent variable.  Smaller creatures make relatively larger
> > reproductive investments.  So *all* modern birds are bad examples of 
> > the
> > choice space for sauropods.
> > 
> > Crocs are similarly very small by comparison, and don't have 
> > parental
> > care; they have a variable degree of nest defense, and some
> > intermittent care of hatchlings.
> > 
> > > > Parental care has a cost.  This cost is not obviously, or 
> > always,
> > > > lower than the cost of producing lots and lots of offspring.
> > > 
> > > This is what we are discussing--but how do you respond to the fact 
> > of
> > > its universality.
> > 
> > By pointing out that it *isn't* universal?
> > 
> > [snip]
> > > > It works for turtles in an aquatic environment with a greater
> > > > proportion of predators than a terrestrial ecosystem; why 
> > wouldn't
> > > > it work for sauropods?
> > > 
> > > Then why do they scramble for the water?  Predation must be
> > > lower--locally, at least.
> > 
> > They scramble for the water because that's where they can move and 
> > eat,
> > I suspect.
> > 
> > Also note that current sea turtle populations are very low, compared 
> > to
> > historical numbers; this is because people eat them.  This makes the 
> > net
> > effect of predation pressure worse.
> > 
> > > > All you have to do is to assume that the number of predators is 
> > a
> > > > little too low to always get a perfect kill off.  That's very 
> > easy
> > > > if the egg laying is seasonal, because the predators have to 
> > get
> > > > through the lean season, and can't carry maximal numbers to the 
> > next
> > > > hatching.
> > > 
> > > On the contrary, a big crop of unprotected growing sauropods 
> > could
> > > support a few predators w for a number of yewars.
> > 
> > And it probably did, but that's not the point I was trying to make.
> > 
> > You have an episodic food source.  It can carry the number of 
> > predators
> > that can survive through the *dip*, not the peak.  (Consider 
> > lemmings
> > and the arctic weasel population.  It's the dip, not the peak, that
> > constrains the weasel population.)
> > 
> > If the peak is sufficiently large compared to the dip that the 
> > predator
> > supply is flatly incapable of eating all of the peak population of
> > sauropod hatchlings, the R strategy will work fine.
> > 
> > > > > Firstly, "R-strategy" is only a relative term.  To a crab 
> > turtles look
> > > > > like K strategists.  Secondly, as argued above, if turtles 
> > stayed on
> > > > > land they would not survive.
> > > >
> > > > They get eaten in the ocean, too.
> > > 
> > > They scramble to get in the ocean.  This is a survival tactic, 
> > right?  I
> > > don't imagine such a trait could survive if the rush to the ocean 
> > didn't
> > > pay reproductive dividends.
> > 
> > It's a tactic to get where they can move and eat; they're sea 
> > turtles,
> > they have flippers.  They would rush to the ocean without the 
> > gulls.
> > 
> > > > The available fossil sauropod clutches have very large numbers 
> > of
> > > > eggs in them.  That's not what a trending-K strategist egg layer 
> > is
> > > > observed to do, that's what a trending-R strategist egg layer 
> > is
> > > > observed to do.
> > > 
> > > 20 eggs is R strategy only in a relative sense.  One can't
> > > overestimate the cost of courting, mating, traveling to nest 
> > sites,
> > > etc.
> > 
> > Sure one can.  Those are all real costs, but they're not 
> > necessarily
> > high or even high-risk.
> > 
> > > At the very least, you can't make a statement that for sauropods 
> > eggs
> > > were cheap, plentiful, and not limiting.  I mean, you can make
> > > it...but it doesn't have evidenciary support.
> > 
> > Sure it does.  Mass.  A clutch of eggs that represents 50% of the 
> > adult
> > weight of the bird that laid them is a huge investment.  A clutch 
> > of
> > eggs that represents 0.5% of the weight of the sauropod that laid 
> > them
> > is not a major investment.
> > 
> > > > Elephants are compulsory K strategists because they are mammals, 
> > for
> > > > one, and for two, they aren't wildly successful, 
> > reproductively;
> > > > they have narrow reproductive margins and deal very badly with 
> > the
> > > > introduction of novel predators, as evidenced by North 
> > America's
> > > > (and the rest of the world's) lack of mammoth.
> > > 
> > > The novel predator is man?
> > 
> > Yup.
> > 
> > Elephants don't have much reproductive elasticity; one female 
> > elephant
> > has a maximum lifetime number of offspring around ten.
> > 
> > Postulating 20 eggs per clutch, 1 clutch a year, and the same 40 
> > year
> > reproductive life, the female sauropod has 800 potential offpsring,
> > probably for a smaller proportionate energy investment.
> > 
> > There is no particular reason to suppose that the sauropod clutch 
> > was
> > that small, or that egg-laying was that infrequent.
> > 
> > -- 
> > oak@uniserve.com | Uton we hycgan    hwaer we ham agen,
> >                  | ond thonne gedhencan    he we thider cumen.
> >                  |   -- The Seafarer, ll. 117-118.
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> "Let's get this train outa here.  Those damn bees might be back any
> minute." - General Slater, from the movie "The Swarm"
> 
> 
> ________________________________________________________________
> The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand!
> Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER!
> Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today!
>