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Re: MORE "Dinosaur Planet"dinosaurs!!!(This time with feathers)



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "TIMOTHY BRIDGEMAN" <timlee3005@earthlink.net>
To: <Mickey_Mortimer111@msn.com>
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 2:23 AM
Subject: Re: MORE "Dinosaur Planet"dinosaurs!!!(This time with feathers)


>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Mickey Mortimer" <Mickey_Mortimer111@msn.com>
> To: <dinosaur@usc.edu>
> Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 9:03 PM
> Subject: Re: MORE "Dinosaur Planet"dinosaurs!!!(This time with feathers)
>
>
> > Okay, I couldn't resist being the first....
> > P.S. Sorry if I sound a bit confrontational, I've just done my fair
share
> of
> > arguing against your viewpoint in the past.
>
> I have no problem with anyone arguing against any of my viewpoints.If you
> can prove me wrong,then by all means do so.What's the worst that can
> happen?I'll have a better understanding of the animals in question?
> So in your own words,"LET THE FIRING BEGIN!"
>
> > TIMOTHY BRIDGEMAN wrote-
> >
> > > The
> > > evidence for feathered dromaeosaurs,such as "Dave" and the recent
"four
> > > winged dinosaur"is questionable to me,because they came from the same
> > source
> > > (even the same quarry)as the infamous"Archaeoraptor".The feather
> > impressions
> > > on the fossils may have been doctored prior to being sold at those
> mineral
> > > shows.
> >
> > First, the "Archaeoraptor" specimen (Yanornis + Microraptor tail) has
real
> > feather remains, so there is no history of faked feather remains from
that
> > quarry.
>
> True.The feather remains were from the top half,which is the
bird,Yanornis.I
> should have been more specific in my statements.That specimen was faked by
> other means(by grafting two specimens together).
>
> > Second, one of the feathered specimens of Microraptor was NOT purchased,
> but
> > was discovered by an expedition of the IVPP.
> > In addition, when the IVPP prepared the specimens, some feathers were
> > underneath the matrix, so were definitely not faked.  Unless you want to
> > call those paleontologists liers.
> > The Microraptor specimens also came from different localities, so they
> were
> > hardly from the same quarry as "Archaeoraptor".
> > This was all explained in Xu et al. (2003), you should really read the
> paper
> > before you question the evidence.
>
> I was not referring to every specimen of Microraptor ever found,I meant
the
> best evidence in favor of feathered dinosaurs,specimens like"Dave"which
does
> come from the same source as "Archaeoraptor".The reason I have no doubts
as
> to validity of Caudipteryx was because that had not come from the same
> source.However,some of the patches of preserved integument on the
specimens
> of Microraptor could possibly have been from birds and gotten preserved
in
> the same matrix.
>
> > > There are ways to do this as demonstrated on a cheesy show made by
> > > Arthur C.Clark,claiming that Archaeopteryx was a hoax.* (We all know
> that
> > > claim was not true,but a method of making feather impressions on
fossils
> > > using modern feathers was shown.)
> >
> > The feather preservation is completely different in the Yixian
Formation,
> > where carbonaceous material is preserved, not just impressions like the
> > skeletal Archaeopteryx specimens.  So the same methods wouldn't work,
and
> it
> > would be INCREDIBLY difficult to fake the feathers.
>
> The plumage seen on the recent specimen of Microraptor,(M.gui,the "four
> winged"dinosaur)was not part of the original fossil.The plumage seen on it
> now is said to be based on the holotype and referred specimen,which was
the
> top half of the "Archaeoraptor"specimen,the birdYanornis(not
> Microraptor).Therefore,while it may be"INCREDIBLY difficult to fake the
> feathers",it certainly is not impossible.
>
>  > > The only Chinese fossils with feather
> > > impressions that I totally beleve are those like Caudipteryx and
> > > Protarchaeopteryx,which I am not totally convinced are
dinosaurs,rather
> > than
> > > primitive flightless birds.
> >
> > Mind giving reasons why you think they are birds?  Or more importantly
why
> > you think they aren't dinosaurs?
> > I've shot down Feduccia's, Martin's, Czerkas' and more....
>
> They show more avian features than those of dinosaurs to me.Caudipteryx
for
> example is closer to Archaeopteryx than to the oviraptorsauria,to which it
> seems to have been classified.
> (I've noticed that no two paleontologist's view of how the dinosaurs are
> related one another is the same.There are always variations.In that
light,we
> are not likely to convince each other here.)
>
> > > As for the "protofeathers"of the likes of
> > > Sinosauropteryx, I believe that there is as much of a chance that the
> > traces
> > > of what appears to be some kind of integuement are actually traces of
> > > decayed connective tissue.
> > Lingham-Soliar's recent papers on this have not been well accepted, to
say
> > the least.
>
>  I personally find the objections to the use of an animal with such an
> enormous amount of connective tissue for their study irrelevent,because it
> still shows the extreme similarity of decayed connective tissue to what
has
> been referred to as"protofeathers".
>
> > A couple questions....
> > 1. Why do other Yixian vertebrates not show collagen remains?  Not
> > Psittacosaurus, or Hyphalosaurus, or the turtles, or mammals....
>
> For the same reason that not all Sinosauropteryx prima specimens show
> collagen remains(or "protofeathers",whichever floats your boat).Some
> specimens fossilise better than others.
>
>
> > 2. Why are the collagen remains of coelurosaurs nearly identical to
> > preserved Yixian bird and dromaeosaur feathers?  What's the reason to
> > believe they are collagen?
>
>   For the same reason that the decayed connective tissues of the buried
> dolphin are nearly identical to preserved Yixian bird and dromaeosaur
> feathers.The similarities mentioned above is my reason to suspect the
> possibility that the preserved Yixian dromeaosaurs especially,show
collagen
> traces.(I include "Dave"in this,as you are right about it not being
faked,I
> do not see a single identifiable feather in this specimen,only fibrous
tufts
> around the body and under the arms and fibers around the head and neck.)
> > Mickey Mortimer
>