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RE: origin of bats/

>>> Can bats open their wing while clinging with their thumbs? I don't know.
>>  go find out.  we'll wait.
> Haven't seen an example yet. You guys are usually first with exceptions. I'll 
> keep looking, but if it's not there, I won't find it either.

 you never know until you look.

>>>> It is my humble opinion that you're reading too much into this
>>>> argument. There are 1) convergences in anatomy, and 2) convergences
>>>> in behavior.
>>>Of course, Drs. Martin and Feduccia,
> >Dr.s
> >and you seem to be fairly obsessed with the two of them

>>>> I'm surprised no one has even mentioned fossa, with prehensile
>>>> tails, prehensile thumbs and a habit of carrying things. Procyonids
>>>> are similarly remarkable.
>>> Worthy of a test? Go for it.
>> will you test it as well?
> Here's the way it works: I make a proposal that goes beyond tradition. It's 
> out there. You guys don't like it, so you come up with a counter.

 like "shut up and publish for God's sake!" ?

> Back and forth we go. Procyonids:  I'll add a raccoon and get back to you. If 
> you have a more primitive taxon, please let me know.

since when is that how professional science works?

>>> Jaime, I'm just giving you the cherries on top. There's so much more
>>>in the dataset.
> >then why are you afraid of it?
> Why bring up "afraid"? That's totally inappropriate. If you're interested in 
> the topic, kindly contact me off line and I'll share what I have.

 are you doing this with everyone?

>>>Insults noted. Name two reptile DNA tests that agree with one another
> and reflect morphology.

>sooo.....you're using reptiles to prove a point about bats?

>No, I'm using reptle DNA tests as evidence against belief in mammal DNA tests, 
>even though some may be right on the money. Ultimately, DNA must be matched to 

>>>> Pedal proportions -- climbing.
>>>sloths are different than lemurs. Do we count bats among the climbers?

>>as in "creatures specialized to climb" or as in "animals able to climb"?

>>since even goats can climb trees.

>Tangent. You're missing the point.

 which point?  you were less than helpful in distinguishing which you meant.

>>>>And the whole list makes up less than 10 characters anyway.
>>>This is coffee talk, cocktail chatter. You're not getting the main
>>>course. Just open your mind to possibilities unexplored until now.

>>bats are descended from either velvet worms or barnacles.  the physical 
>>parallels are many!  (vampire bats have anticoagulant saliva, just like 
>>velvet worms have saliva that keeps their webbing from hardening too soon; 
>>hammerhead bats have a plume-like structure in each armpit)

>Dr. Martin, thank you. This is my last email to you, Anthony. You're not 
>serious about this and you don't understand the meaning of "suite of 

 are you sure I'm Anthony?  you keep calling me "Dr Martin" for some reason.

>>>David, the literature is not all-inclusive, nor is it gospel. If it
>>> were, we could all go home right now. You don't want to do that, do
> you? I know there are a few "facts" _you_ want to refute and a few
>>> discoveries _you_ want to make in your career. So why step on someone
>>> else's toes when all they are doing is raising their hand with a
>>>question and a possible solution for a problem that __no one__ else
>>> has ventured a guess on?

>>nobody else has ventured a guess as to where bats fit, in teh family of 

>>> Again, these are only part of the formula. Do you walk around angry
> and sarcastic all the time? Or only when you respond to new hypotheses?

>> if I remember my college and high school biology classes, a hypothesis 
>> demands support (more than just "i say so") from its author.  evidence is 
>> required, either at the initial hypothesis-making or shortly after - or both.

>If you were really interested, you'd ask for more information.

 we've ALL been asking you for more information.

The i’m Talkathon starts 6/24/08.  For now, give amongst yourselves.