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Re: Vancleavea campi - what is it? - not an archosauriform.

Sorry, Jaime, but whatever tone David adopts I can't agree that his
39-word dismissal of a 51-page monograph can be described as "civil".
For him, based on a couple of hours looking at Nesbitt et al.'s
figures, to dismiss the work that they did over a period of years with
the actual specimen -- well, at the very least that qualifies as
"uncivil".  I can think of a few other words I might have used but
let's leave it at that.

And do I really have to point out that "ad hominem" doesn't just mean
"saying something unwelcome"?  If I had said "David did this work,
therefore it's wrong", that would have been ad hominem.  What I
actually said is that the work itself (if you want to call it that) is
woefully inadequate.

Well.  I am not going to be drawn into a classic DML pissing contest,
so I will leave this thread for you to have the last word.  Enjoy.

2009/12/5 Jaime Headden <qi_leong@hotmail.com>:
> It seems to me that for the most part, David Peters is enormously civil. The 
> phrasing may be off, and we may even disagree strongly and even come from 
> this discussion exasperated at the unpublished refutations, but at least he 
> is civil, and deserves the patience and tone in which it is given (at the 
> least). This reply from Mike Taylor seems bornerline _ad hominem_. Could we 
> at least be more civil with one another?
> Cheers,
> Jaime A. Headden
> "Innocent, unbiased observation is a myth." --- P.B. Medawar (1969)
> "Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn
> from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent
> disinclination to do so." --- Douglas Adams (Last Chance to See)
> "Ever since man first left his cave and met a stranger with a
> different language and a new way of looking at things, the human race
> has had a dream: to kill him, so we don't have to learn his language or
> his new way of looking at things." --- Zapp Brannigan (Beast With a Billion 
> Backs)
> ----------------------------------------
>> Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 09:52:45 +0000
>> From: mike@indexdata.com
>> To: davidpeters@att.net
>> CC: dinosaur@usc.edu
>> Subject: Re: Vancleavea campi - what is it? - not an archosauriform.
>> David, do you really have SUCH contempt for Nesbitt, Stocker, Small
>> and Downs? Are you really SO confident that your interpretation,
>> which is based entirely on their work, is better than theirs? Does
>> the possibility that they might just know what they're talking about
>> not even enter your mind?
>> Seriously, dude.
>> 2009/12/5 David Peters :
>>> One of the reasons why Vancleavea campi does not have an antorbital 
>>> fenestra and upper temporal fenestrae is because it is not an 
>>> archosauriform. It is a askeptosaurid thalattosaur and a sister taxon to 
>>> the short-snouted Miodentosaurus. [Links below]
>>> http://2007tga.cgu.org.tw/cdrom/Oral%20(PDF)/ST1-4B-06.pdf
>>> http://www.ivpp.ac.cn/cbw/gjzdwxb/xbwzxz/200902/W020090813372748918302.pdf
>>> The scales are still weird.
>>> The neomorph bone between the orbits is nothing more than the ascending 
>>> process of the premaxilla.
>>> For those who still think you have to stare at a specimen in person to 
>>> publish on it, well, now you see how that can prove to be a wee bit myopic.
>>> David Peters
>>> Refs:
>>> Cheng, Y.-N., X.-C. Wu, T. Sato. 2007. A new thalattosaurian (Reptilia: 
>>> Diapsida) from the Upper Triassic of Guizhou, China. Vert PalAsiatica 45: 
>>> 246-260.
>>> Nesbitt, S. J., M. R. Stocker, B. J. Small and A. Downs. 2009. The 
>>> osteology and relationships of Vancleavea campi (Reptilia: 
>>> Archosauriformes). Zoological Journal of the Linnaean Society 157, 814-864.
>>> Parker, W G. & Barton, B. J. 2008. New Information on the Upper Triassic 
>>> archosauriform Vancleavea campi based on new material from the Chinle 
>>> Formation of Arizona. Palaeontologia Electronica 11 (3); 14A: 20p.
>>> Wu, X.-C., Y.-N. Cheng, T. Sato and H.-Y. Shan. 2009. Miodentosaurus brevis 
>>> Cheng 2007 (Diapsida; Thalattosauria): Its postcranial skeleton and 
>>> phylogenetic relationships. Vertebrata PalAsiatica 47:1-20.
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