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Re: Vancleavea campi - what is it? - not an archosauriform.



Mike,

The wonderful thing about science is: you can see for yourself! We don't have 
to get into such issues as respect and contempt. 

I simply presented the evidence that you may use to test competing hypotheses. 

In point of fact, NSS&D were so confident they restricted their inclusion set 
to 12 taxa. I wasn't so confident, so I expanded the list to 187.

I urge you to test it for yourself. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. And I'll be glad 
to be wrong. But right now, the evidence points the other way. 

Since NSS&D didn't include askeptosaurids within their taxon list, they MAY 
have made the same mistake I keep harping on over and over. Make sure the 
inclusion set covers the gamut of your study. 

Let a third party decide. You f'rinstance. Have a go at it. 

Seriously, my fellow dude.  :  )

David Peters


On Dec 5, 2009, at 3:52 AM, Mike Taylor wrote:

> David, do you really have SUCH contempt for Nesbitt, Stocker, Small
> and Downs?  Are you really SO confident that your interpretation,
> which is based entirely on their work, is better than theirs?  Does
> the possibility that they might just know what they're talking about
> not even enter your mind?
> 
> Seriously, dude.
> 
> 
> 
> 2009/12/5 David Peters <davidpeters@att.net>:
>> One of the reasons why Vancleavea campi does not have an antorbital fenestra 
>> and upper temporal fenestrae is because it is not an archosauriform. It is a 
>> askeptosaurid thalattosaur and a sister taxon to the short-snouted 
>> Miodentosaurus. [Links below]
>> 
>> http://2007tga.cgu.org.tw/cdrom/Oral%20(PDF)/ST1-4B-06.pdf
>> http://www.ivpp.ac.cn/cbw/gjzdwxb/xbwzxz/200902/W020090813372748918302.pdf
>> 
>> The scales are still weird.
>> 
>> The neomorph bone between the orbits is nothing more than the ascending 
>> process of the premaxilla.
>> 
>> For those who still think you have to stare at a specimen in person to 
>> publish on it, well, now you see how that can prove to be a wee bit myopic.
>> 
>> David Peters
>> 
>> Refs:
>> 
>> Cheng, Y.-N., X.-C. Wu, T. Sato. 2007. A new thalattosaurian (Reptilia: 
>> Diapsida) from the Upper Triassic of Guizhou, China. Vert PalAsiatica 45: 
>> 246-260.
>> 
>> Nesbitt, S. J., M. R. Stocker, B. J. Small and A. Downs. 2009. The osteology 
>> and relationships of Vancleavea campi (Reptilia: Archosauriformes). 
>> Zoological Journal of the Linnaean Society 157, 814-864.
>> 
>> Parker, W G. & Barton, B. J. 2008. New Information on the Upper Triassic 
>> archosauriform Vancleavea campi based on new material from the Chinle 
>> Formation of Arizona. Palaeontologia Electronica 11 (3); 14A: 20p.
>> 
>> Wu, X.-C., Y.-N. Cheng, T. Sato and H.-Y. Shan. 2009. Miodentosaurus brevis 
>> Cheng 2007 (Diapsida; Thalattosauria): Its postcranial skeleton and 
>> phylogenetic relationships. Vertebrata PalAsiatica 47:1-20.
>> 
>>