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Re: Theft of dinosaur bones from Glen Canyon--followup



Paul P.

The point of my post about the Glen Canyon theft, as with other of my many other posts about fossil theft, is

1. The theft of fossils from public lands is a serious law enforcement, resource management, and scientific problem.

2. I believe many scientists, land managers, individuals responsible for protecting fossil resources on public lands, and subscribers to this list are interested in cases of fossil theft, even when no one is charged or arrested. In this incident other items, in addition to vertebrate fossils, were also stolen.

3. An individual was identified and the evidence was sufficient that he was charged by the Colorado State Attorney's Office.

4. The story was in the public domain, not based on any non-public information.

The post was not intended to shock and awe anyone. I think you accomplished that quite nicely. I have no idea who Mr. Lindsey is, so there is no grudge. Interesting that you would think of such a motivation. I have plenty to do and much better things to do if I want to kill time, this is something I simply provide to others. I certainly made no accusation about Mr. Lindsey being guilty or innocent. I also didn't lament that we can't shoot him. I can't speak for others, but I have read enough of gruesome details the political history of the 20th century as well as the rise of the terrorist networks that now plague us, to know that the world is messed up. I read Shirer's Rise and Fall of the Third Reich when I was 13 so I've been well aware of it for quite a long time. Maybe you have never been to Jensen Utah, but I can assure you it is no post-civilization academic enclave.

Dan




Paul P wrote:
I too despise mistreatment of women or any other human being. That would include innocent people who have been accused of wrongdoing, e.g. taking artifacts from public lands. Once someone has been convicted, that's another matter (though you're still on thin ice spreading that sort of info around). But to post to a listserver an *accusation* that someone has committed an act--even if previously reported on the esteemed Salt Lake Tribune website--before he is convicted of anything, is simply wrong, in my opinion.

So, what was the point of Dan Chure's original post that prompted me to make my flippant and not-too-apropos-after-all response?

Was it to shock and awe the rest of us (many of whom are professional paleontologists but some of whom might just be private collectors thinking about grabbing some bones during the night) into *not even thinking about* doing that the next time we visit Glen canyon or any other site..?

Was it to slander Mr. Lindsey? (a personal grudge perhaps?)

Was it just to kill time..?

I really can't fathom the point of making a post to this list accusing someone of something unless he has been convicted of it. (and even then, see above). Innocent persons are one of those protected groups everyone's defending now. Augusto's point about an easy-trigger tendency in our western culture is apropos but falls far short. Many cornerstones of American society, including "innocent until proven guilty", are eroding or being turned on their head.

I can't help but wonder if we as dinosaur paleontologists, a kind of post-civilization academic enclave, realize how messed up much of the world really is.

Aach, look, it's already time for afternoon tea.



--- On Sat, 5/23/09, Augusto Haro <augustoharo@gmail.com> wrote:

From: Augusto Haro <augustoharo@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Theft of dinosaur bones from Glen Canyon National Recreation Area
To: alaric7@verizon.net
Cc: "DML" <dinosaur@usc.edu>
Date: Saturday, May 23, 2009, 12:52 PM

I am with all those which criticize
treatment of women, as well as any
human, as if they were inferior. But it seems to me that
speaking so
freely about shooting someone shows also an easy-trigger
tendence in
our western culture. Not wanting to hit Paul P specifically
in this.
Last days I was seeing a Lost chapter where "the good guys"
easily and
happily kill their adversaries instead of trying to arrest
them, and
this is shown in many movies as well.

2009/5/23 Alaric Shapli <alaric7@verizon.net>:
As my father likes to say;
When you find yourself in a hole, STOP DIGGING.

----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul P" <turtlecroc@yahoo.com>
To: "DML" <dinosaur@usc.edu>
Sent: Saturday, May 23, 2009 2:51 AM
Subject: Re: Theft of dinosaur bones from Glen Canyon
National Recreation
Area


Sorry if i upset anyone with my
not-too-well-considered post
earlier today.

We could do an interesting study from this,
though. We could
tally how many people replied [negatively] to the
post,
divide by the total number of subscribers to the
DML, and
find out what percentage of the general population
doesn't
have a sense of humor.


--- On Fri, 5/22/09, Dan Chure <danchure@easilink.com>
wrote:
From: Dan Chure <danchure@easilink.com>
Subject: Re: Theft of dinosaur bones from Glen
Canyon National Recreation
Area
To: turtlecroc@yahoo.com
Cc: "DML" <dinosaur@usc.edu>
Date: Friday, May 22, 2009, 11:12 PM

How exactly does that seem somehow
apropos of the theft of paleontological,
geological, and
cultural objects from public lands? Is it a
lesser crime
depending on who turns someone in or why they
do it?
Dan

Paul P wrote:
dinosaur bone from Glen Canyon in
Kane County.
Lindsey was
turned in by his ex-wife

Aach, women. Can't live with em, can't
shoot em.
That's a line out of a movie, actually,
though i can't
recall offhand which one. (True Lies?) But it
seems somehow
apropos.
--- On Sat, 5/16/09, Dan Chure <danchure@easilink.com>
wrote:
From: Dan Chure <danchure@easilink.com>
Subject: Theft of dinosaur bones from
Glen Canyon
National Recreation Area
To: "DML" <dinosaur@usc.edu>,
VRTPALEO@usc.edu
Date: Saturday, May 16, 2009, 8:57
AM
One Mr. Penn Lindsey is accused of
stealing
petrified wood,
lava bomb, lava rock, flat red rock,
garnet, five
stone
artifact pieces, river rock, pot
shards and 14
pieces of
dinosaur bone from Glen Canyon in
Kane County.
Lindsey was
turned in by his ex-wife, who said
she was afraid
he would
teach their son how to loot as well.

More details can be read at:

http://www.sltrib.com/ci_12381775

Dan



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