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Re: FW: Komodo Dragon venom -

Given that we are getting somewhat off-topic with this, that it seems
to me we disagree too much and will have to follow this discussion for
somewhat long, that we may get advertised here if we do it on-list,
and that your messages come to the list with some "=2C" and "="
symbols, I would prefer to follow this discussion off-list. This is
not the appropiate place to discuss this.

2009/10/3 dale mcinnes <wdm1949@hotmail.com>:
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>  <78eb35330910021801o76ec328cj7db62432fd64ac5e@mail.gmail.com>
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>> Date: Fri=2C 2 Oct 2009 22:01:14 -0300
>> Subject: Re: FW: Komodo Dragon venom -
>> From: augustoharo@gmail.com
>> To: wdm1949@hotmail.com
>> CC: dinosaur@usc.edu
>>> Don't like laelling things?? Welcome to the human race! That's what we d=
> o.
>> I am not against labelling things for communication sake. Just to use
>> labels with a bad connotation for animals. The bad appreciation of
>> cats and snakes=2C for example=2C has lead people in other ages=2C as wel=
> l
>> as in our own=2C to kill these animals at sight.
> =20
> - Agreed. We sometimes attribute more basal instincts of other species to t=
> he more
>  elevated behavioral complexity of our own. This is a worldwide phenomenon=
>  of our
>  species. Primitive too.
>>> Be carefull when you suggest that animals don't have morals. They sure d=
> o.
>>>>From arthropods on up. "Morals" are the clergy's word for "animal instin=
> cts".
>> I am not an expert on morality=2C but I think it has to do with rules to
>> live well in society. These rules=2C at some level=2C may vary from a
>> culture to other=2C as well. These rules are consciently accepted or
>> refused by humans. With an instinct=2C you cannot do that. It is rare an
>> animal can interpret these rules of our societies=2C destined for
>> humans=2C and choose whether or not to accept them.
> - Morality certainly has to do with rules to live well in society. But don'=
> t be fooled
>  by this. We make rules that are evolutionarily advantageous to us. Some s=
> ocieties create
>  rules to dominate others. These are still attributable to instincts of su=
> rvival in its
>  many varied forms. The complexity hides the fact that they are still attr=
> ibutal to basal
>  animal instinct. These rules of morality can be accepted or refused depen=
> ded solely upon
>  the degree of entrenchment (or how basal the instinct).
> =20
> - You're having difficulty making the connections. You think other species =
> can not do this.
>  A lioness can be attacked by other pride members if she is even suspected=
>  of cannibalism
>  of the odd lion cub. A lioness will do this very carefully and out of sig=
> ht of other adults.
>  She knows she will be "chasticed" if found out. They won't kill her. The =
> pride will simply
>  cast her out ..... permanently. No other adult will trust her ever again =
> around their cubs.
>  She won't even put up a fight. She knows "instinctively" when she's been =
> "bad". And yes. She
>  has a choice in her "society".
> =20
> - It is far from rare that an animal can choose whether or not to accept ou=
> r rules. Dogs
>  do in fact interpret them but on their level of understanding. Like child=
> ren=2C they yearn for
>  appreciation when they have done a task well however simple that may be. =
> Watch a dogs behavior
>  when it knocks over a vase=2C sleeps on a forbidden couch or poops where =
> it should not have. Higher
>  cognitive abilities related to that label "guilt" cause the dog to place =
> its tail between its legs
>  and adopt a submissive attitude sometimes hiding under an object well bef=
> ore the human even finds
>  out about the incident. Call it whatever you want. Its there and it does =
> not separate us except
>  by degree. And lets not even begin on altruism in other species. Its all =
> there. Thats one of the=20
>  very good reasons that we as humans can positively interact with other sp=
> ecies sometimes without
>  ever saying a word. It goes very deep. 550 my deep.
> =20
>>> You should not separate humans from animals this way. Different groups o=
> f
>>> fauna have different elevations of "morals". By that I mean "complexity"=
> .
>> Morals have to do with complexity? It may be that our brain is more
>> complex than that of other animals=2C and we follow moral rules and they
>> do not. But=2C then=2C chimp brains may be more complex than those of mos=
> t
>> mammals and they make things our morality should condemn if applied to
>> them (although sadly many humans do)=2C as infanticide.
> =20
> - Yes. Complexity. I was referring to the level of morality. Its there. Mor=
> als
>  can even be a mixture of basal instinct (altruism in ants) v.s. more comp=
> lex
>  (altruism in dogs/humans). =20
>>> You've never seen cats kill for fun? Know how to torture other animals t=
> o
>>> get something from them? Call it instinct if you want. Just because so m=
> any
>>> people can't bring themselves to utter the "E" word (evolution) and conn=
> ect
>>> with our distant past ........ --dale
>> Likely=2C slowly killing a mouse is what cats are compelled to do. Cats
>> do not have any social contract with mice. No society told them what
>> is evil and what not. Even if we try=2C they will not learn. Small kids
>> are selfish and can be also cruel if not educated. It does not have
>> correspondence with an human torturer which knows the rules he/she is
>> breaking.
> - Again. See above. When I referred to torture you thought I was joking or =
> didn't
>  get the point. I'll go back to cats again. Cheetahs are not very competit=
> ive with
>  lions. Lions don't see them as prey food. If they know of the presence of=
>  a cheetah
>  in their territory=2C they will actively seek to find its cubs. If they f=
> ind them=2C
>  they won't kill them ..... at first. Instead=2C a lioness will hold a cub=
>  high above
>  the surrounding foliage and look around to see if its being watched. If i=
> t can't
>  detect the immediate presence of the mother=2C the lioness will gently bi=
> te down on
>  the cub to get it to violently kick and scream. It will break bones if ne=
> cessary.
>  It will keep the cub alive long enough to allow the pride to stalk the cu=
> bs mother.
> =20
> - Its instinct. They've learned it usually gets results. If the ""Mob" can'=
> t find you=2C
>  you know how they can bring you out into the open. Really!! Where did you=
>  think we
>  learned all this??
> =20
> - Written morals were formulated from verbal morals which in turn are simpl=
> y an expression
>  of human feelings translated down to each generation. Human feelings are =
> attributed by the
>  clergy to the "soul". We know better. Its that internalised human/animal =
> "spirit" predicated
>  upon conjured up thoughts of that lump of gray matter basally influenced =
> by its own hormones
>  whose release is sometimes dictated by the many sensory inputs from its e=
> nvironment. What=20
>  codes all this? Genes. Look at species as individual apples. The clergy s=
> ay we have "fallen".
>  But no matter how far ..... we all fall from that one tree. But I do love=
>  the label=20
>  ....... animal instinct. --dale                                         =0A=
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