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FW: Komodo Dragon venom -



         <78eb35330910021801o76ec328cj7db62432fd64ac5e@mail.gmail.com>

         <BLU135-W22FF0428176E1AE936352CB4D10@phx.gbl>
 

 <78eb35330910041927w17eb6ba0jd1f82b70f9459717@mail.gmail.com>
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I hear you. Despite that evolution is a very big part of this
..... we are dancing a little close to the fire and slipping=20
too far away from our favourite archosaurs. --dale

----------------------------------------
> Date: Sun=2C 4 Oct 2009 23:27:32 -0300
> Subject: Re: FW: Komodo Dragon venom -
> From: augustoharo@gmail.com
> To: wdm1949@hotmail.com
> CC: dinosaur@usc.edu
>
> Given that we are getting somewhat off-topic with this=2C that it seems
> to me we disagree too much and will have to follow this discussion for
> somewhat long=2C that we may get advertised here if we do it on-list=2C
> and that your messages come to the list with some "=3D2C" and "=3D"
> symbols=2C I would prefer to follow this discussion off-list. This is
> not the appropiate place to discuss this.
>
> 2009/10/3 dale mcinnes :
>>
>>=20
>>
>>
>> <78eb35330910021801o76ec328cj7db62432fd64ac5e@mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain=3B charset=3D"iso-8859-1"
>> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>> MIME-Version: 1.0
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------
>>> Date: Fri=3D2C 2 Oct 2009 22:01:14 -0300
>>> Subject: Re: FW: Komodo Dragon venom -
>>> From: augustoharo@gmail.com
>>> To: wdm1949@hotmail.com
>>> CC: dinosaur@usc.edu
>>>
>>>> WHOOOOOAA!!!
>>>> Don't like laelling things?? Welcome to the human race! That's what we=
 d=3D
>> o.
>>>
>>> I am not against labelling things for communication sake. Just to use
>>> labels with a bad connotation for animals. The bad appreciation of
>>> cats and snakes=3D2C for example=3D2C has lead people in other ages=3D2=
C as wel=3D
>> l
>>> as in our own=3D2C to kill these animals at sight.
>> =3D20
>> - Agreed. We sometimes attribute more basal instincts of other species t=
o t=3D
>> he more
>> elevated behavioral complexity of our own. This is a worldwide phenomeno=
n=3D
>> of our
>> species. Primitive too.
>>
>>>
>>>> Be carefull when you suggest that animals don't have morals. They sure=
 d=3D
>> o.
>>>>>From arthropods on up. "Morals" are the clergy's word for "animal inst=
in=3D
>> cts".
>>>
>>> I am not an expert on morality=3D2C but I think it has to do with rules=
 to
>>> live well in society. These rules=3D2C at some level=3D2C may vary from=
 a
>>> culture to other=3D2C as well. These rules are consciently accepted or
>>> refused by humans. With an instinct=3D2C you cannot do that. It is rare=
 an
>>> animal can interpret these rules of our societies=3D2C destined for
>>> humans=3D2C and choose whether or not to accept them.
>>
>> - Morality certainly has to do with rules to live well in society. But d=
on'=3D
>> t be fooled
>> by this. We make rules that are evolutionarily advantageous to us. Some =
s=3D
>> ocieties create
>> rules to dominate others. These are still attributable to instincts of s=
u=3D
>> rvival in its
>> many varied forms. The complexity hides the fact that they are still att=
r=3D
>> ibutal to basal
>> animal instinct. These rules of morality can be accepted or refused depe=
n=3D
>> ded solely upon
>> the degree of entrenchment (or how basal the instinct).
>> =3D20
>> - You're having difficulty making the connections. You think other speci=
es =3D
>> can not do this.
>> A lioness can be attacked by other pride members if she is even suspecte=
d=3D
>> of cannibalism
>> of the odd lion cub. A lioness will do this very carefully and out of si=
g=3D
>> ht of other adults.
>> She knows she will be "chasticed" if found out. They won't kill her. The=
 =3D
>> pride will simply
>> cast her out ..... permanently. No other adult will trust her ever again=
 =3D
>> around their cubs.
>> She won't even put up a fight. She knows "instinctively" when she's been=
 =3D
>> "bad". And yes. She
>> has a choice in her "society".
>> =3D20
>> - It is far from rare that an animal can choose whether or not to accept=
 ou=3D
>> r rules. Dogs
>> do in fact interpret them but on their level of understanding. Like chil=
d=3D
>> ren=3D2C they yearn for
>> appreciation when they have done a task well however simple that may be.=
 =3D
>> Watch a dogs behavior
>> when it knocks over a vase=3D2C sleeps on a forbidden couch or poops whe=
re =3D
>> it should not have. Higher
>> cognitive abilities related to that label "guilt" cause the dog to place=
 =3D
>> its tail between its legs
>> and adopt a submissive attitude sometimes hiding under an object well be=
f=3D
>> ore the human even finds
>> out about the incident. Call it whatever you want. Its there and it does=
 =3D
>> not separate us except
>> by degree. And lets not even begin on altruism in other species. Its all=
 =3D
>> there. Thats one of the=3D20
>> very good reasons that we as humans can positively interact with other s=
p=3D
>> ecies sometimes without
>> ever saying a word. It goes very deep. 550 my deep.
>> =3D20
>>>> You should not separate humans from animals this way. Different groups=
 o=3D
>> f
>>>> fauna have different elevations of "morals". By that I mean "complexit=
y"=3D
>> .
>>>
>>> Morals have to do with complexity? It may be that our brain is more
>>> complex than that of other animals=3D2C and we follow moral rules and t=
hey
>>> do not. But=3D2C then=3D2C chimp brains may be more complex than those =
of mos=3D
>> t
>>> mammals and they make things our morality should condemn if applied to
>>> them (although sadly many humans do)=3D2C as infanticide.
>> =3D20
>> - Yes. Complexity. I was referring to the level of morality. Its there. =
Mor=3D
>> als
>> can even be a mixture of basal instinct (altruism in ants) v.s. more com=
p=3D
>> lex
>> (altruism in dogs/humans). =3D20
>>>
>>>> You've never seen cats kill for fun? Know how to torture other animals=
 t=3D
>> o
>>>> get something from them? Call it instinct if you want. Just because so=
 m=3D
>> any
>>>> people can't bring themselves to utter the "E" word (evolution) and co=
nn=3D
>> ect
>>>> with our distant past ........ --dale
>>>
>>> Likely=3D2C slowly killing a mouse is what cats are compelled to do. Ca=
ts
>>> do not have any social contract with mice. No society told them what
>>> is evil and what not. Even if we try=3D2C they will not learn. Small ki=
ds
>>> are selfish and can be also cruel if not educated. It does not have
>>> correspondence with an human torturer which knows the rules he/she is
>>> breaking.
>>
>> - Again. See above. When I referred to torture you thought I was joking =
or =3D
>> didn't
>> get the point. I'll go back to cats again. Cheetahs are not very competi=
t=3D
>> ive with
>> lions. Lions don't see them as prey food. If they know of the presence o=
f=3D
>> a cheetah
>> in their territory=3D2C they will actively seek to find its cubs. If the=
y f=3D
>> ind them=3D2C
>> they won't kill them ..... at first. Instead=3D2C a lioness will hold a =
cub=3D
>> high above
>> the surrounding foliage and look around to see if its being watched. If =
i=3D
>> t can't
>> detect the immediate presence of the mother=3D2C the lioness will gently=
 bi=3D
>> te down on
>> the cub to get it to violently kick and scream. It will break bones if n=
e=3D
>> cessary.
>> It will keep the cub alive long enough to allow the pride to stalk the c=
u=3D
>> bs mother.
>> =3D20
>> - Its instinct. They've learned it usually gets results. If the ""Mob" c=
an'=3D
>> t find you=3D2C
>> you know how they can bring you out into the open. Really!! Where did yo=
u=3D
>> think we
>> learned all this??
>> =3D20
>> - Written morals were formulated from verbal morals which in turn are si=
mpl=3D
>> y an expression
>> of human feelings translated down to each generation. Human feelings are=
 =3D
>> attributed by the
>> clergy to the "soul". We know better. Its that internalised human/animal=
 =3D
>> "spirit" predicated
>> upon conjured up thoughts of that lump of gray matter basally influenced=
 =3D
>> by its own hormones
>> whose release is sometimes dictated by the many sensory inputs from its =
e=3D
>> nvironment. What=3D20
>> codes all this? Genes. Look at species as individual apples. The clergy =
s=3D
>> ay we have "fallen".
>> But no matter how far ..... we all fall from that one tree. But I do lov=
e=3D
>> the label=3D20
>> ....... animal instinct. --dale =3D0A=3D
>> _________________________________________________________________=3D0A=
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