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RE: real or fake skeletons (the entire discussion)





----------------------------------------
> Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 10:59:44 +0200
> From: heinrich.mallison@googlemail.com
> To: keenir@hotmail.com
> CC: dinosaur@usc.edu
> Subject: Re: real or fake skeletons (was re Tianyu Museum of Nature's "world 
> record" dinosaur collection)
>
> this has, by your unfortunate action, become a list matter. Thus, I
> will not reply to your emails anymore after this, except on-list.
 
 thank you.
 
> YOUR country only matters if it is China. Other countries do not
> matter to the discussion, because IN CHINA, one should adhere to
> Chinese customs. And these, I was told by many people both Chinese and
> Western, mean not flaunting one's (possibly correct, possibly false)
> knowledge.
>
> As I said: if asked for an honest opinion, I will tell. But I was not
> asked to speak my mind in most places. Thus, I shut my yap, because I
> was not able to help without being impolite. Should make you happy.
>
>
 
if you're going to switch off- to on-line replies, it would be dishonest to not 
include the entire discussion.
 
 
----------------------------------------
> From: keenir@hotmail.com
> To: heinrich.mallison@googlemail.com; keenir@hotmail.com
> Subject: RE: real or fake skeletons (was re Tianyu Museum of Nature's "world 
> record" dinosaur collection)
> Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 07:58:08 +0000
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------
> > Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 08:15:51 +0200
> > Subject: Re: real or fake skeletons (was re Tianyu Museum of Nature's 
> > "world record" dinosaur collection)
> > From: heinrich.mallison@googlemail.com
> > To: keenir@hotmail.com
> >
> > no apology needed :)
> >
> > I have seen mounts where one skeleton (e.g., a supposed Beipiaosaurus
> > inexpectus) had parts of several theropod genera, psittacosaurs, and
> > non-dinosaurian archosaurs (usually crocodiles) combined. OUCH!
>
> so, is that the meaning of "fauna" as you used it?
>
>
> > and as I wrote before: plaster casts labeled as such are not a
> > problem. It is claiming that something is real when it is not that
> > angers me.
> >
> > also, for example, in Tübingen, Berlin, Stuttgart the vast majority of
> > material is real. AMNH, NHM, etc? mostly real, too....
>
> ...but not labelled as such. that's what I said.
>
>
> >
> > regards
> > Heinrich
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 3:15 AM, Anthony Docimo wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > apologies...here's the plain text.
> > > (and my reply)
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------------
> > >> Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 20:40:06 +0000
> > >> From: keenir@hotmail.com
> > >> To: DINOSAUR@usc.edu
> > >> CC: dinosaur@usc.edu
> > >> Subject: RE:real or fake skeletons (was re Tianyu Museum of Nature's 
> > >> "world record" dinosaur collection)
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> > Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 19:32:56 +0200
> > >> > From: heinrich.mallison@googlemail.com
> > >> > To: pristichampsus@yahoo.com
> > >> > CC: dinosaur@usc.edu
> > >> > Subject: Re: Tianyu Museum of Nature's "world record" dinosaur 
> > >> > collection
> > >> >
> > >>
> > >> > In some places, each skeleton made
> > >> > from real bones is a fauna,
> > >>
> > >> members of the same species, but not the same individual? (or members of 
> > >> different species?)
> > >>
> > >> > and 90% of skeletons are made from plaster
> > >> > or epoxy.
> > >>
> > >> Except....isn't that true with the skeletons in pretty much any museum?
> > >>
> > >> (as an example, how many copies did Andrew Carnegie make, and how many 
> > >> were given to him in return?)
> > >
> > >
> > >> Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 23:26:23 +0200
> > >> Subject: Re: real or fake skeletons (was re Tianyu Museum of Nature's 
> > >> "world record" dinosaur collection)
> > >> From: heinrich.mallison@googlemail.com
> > >> To: keenir@hotmail.com
> > >>
> > >> how many of these are presented as real bones?
> > >
> > > last time I was in the Smithsonian Museum, the dinosaurs and extinct 
> > > mammals weren't labelled "this is a replica". They said, instead, 
> > > "Triceratops," etc.
> > >
> > >
> > >> 'nuff said....
> > >
> > >
> > >> On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 10:40 PM, Anthony Docimo wrote:
> > >> > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> > >> > * ---REMAINDER OF MESSAGE TRUNCATED--- *
> > >> > * This post contains a forbidden message format *
> > >
> > >
 
----------------------------------------
> Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 09:59:46 +0200
> Subject: Re: real or fake skeletons (was re Tianyu Museum of Nature's "world 
> record" dinosaur collection)
> From: heinrich.mallison@googlemail.com
> To: keenir@hotmail.com
>
> On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 9:58 AM, Anthony Docimo wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------
> >> Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 08:15:51 +0200
> >> Subject: Re: real or fake skeletons (was re Tianyu Museum of Nature's 
> >> "world record" dinosaur collection)
> >> From: heinrich.mallison@googlemail.com
> >> To: keenir@hotmail.com
> >>
> >> no apology needed :)
> >>
> >> I have seen mounts where one skeleton (e.g., a supposed Beipiaosaurus
> >> inexpectus) had parts of several theropod genera, psittacosaurs, and
> >> non-dinosaurian archosaurs (usually crocodiles) combined. OUCH!
> >
> > so, is that the meaning of "fauna" as you used it?
>
> that is exactly what I meant: instead of one species, what you see
> shows fragments of an entire faunal assemblage.
>
> >
> >
> >> and as I wrote before: plaster casts labeled as such are not a
> >> problem. It is claiming that something is real when it is not that
> >> angers me.
> >>
> >> also, for example, in Tübingen, Berlin, Stuttgart the vast majority of
> >> material is real. AMNH, NHM, etc? mostly real, too....
> >
> > ...but not labelled as such. that's what I said.
> >
>
> but most ARE labelled as casts!
>
>
> >>
> >> regards
> >> Heinrich
> >>
> >> On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 3:15 AM, Anthony Docimo wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > apologies...here's the plain text.
> >> > (and my reply)
> >> >
> >> > ----------------------------------------
> >> >> Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 20:40:06 +0000
> >> >> From: keenir@hotmail.com
> >> >> To: DINOSAUR@usc.edu
> >> >> CC: dinosaur@usc.edu
> >> >> Subject: RE:real or fake skeletons (was re Tianyu Museum of Nature's 
> >> >> "world record" dinosaur collection)
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> > Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 19:32:56 +0200
> >> >> > From: heinrich.mallison@googlemail.com
> >> >> > To: pristichampsus@yahoo.com
> >> >> > CC: dinosaur@usc.edu
> >> >> > Subject: Re: Tianyu Museum of Nature's "world record" dinosaur 
> >> >> > collection
> >> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> > In some places, each skeleton made
> >> >> > from real bones is a fauna,
> >> >>
> >> >> members of the same species, but not the same individual? (or members 
> >> >> of different species?)
> >> >>
> >> >> > and 90% of skeletons are made from plaster
> >> >> > or epoxy.
> >> >>
> >> >> Except....isn't that true with the skeletons in pretty much any museum?
> >> >>
> >> >> (as an example, how many copies did Andrew Carnegie make, and how many 
> >> >> were given to him in return?)
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> Date: Tue, 3 Aug 2010 23:26:23 +0200
> >> >> Subject: Re: real or fake skeletons (was re Tianyu Museum of Nature's 
> >> >> "world record" dinosaur collection)
> >> >> From: heinrich.mallison@googlemail.com
> >> >> To: keenir@hotmail.com
> >> >>
> >> >> how many of these are presented as real bones?
> >> >
> >> > last time I was in the Smithsonian Museum, the dinosaurs and extinct 
> >> > mammals weren't labelled "this is a replica". They said, instead, 
> >> > "Triceratops," etc.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> 'nuff said....
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >> On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 10:40 PM, Anthony Docimo wrote:
> >> >> > * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
> >> >> > * ---REMAINDER OF MESSAGE TRUNCATED--- *
> >> >> > * This post contains a forbidden message format *
> >> >
> >> >

----------------------------------------
> From: keenir@hotmail.com
> To: heinrich.mallison@googlemail.com; keenir@hotmail.com
> Subject: RE: real or fake skeletons (was re Tianyu Museum of Nature's "world 
> record" dinosaur collection)
> Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 08:07:49 +0000
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------
> > Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 09:59:46 +0200
> > Subject: Re: real or fake skeletons (was re Tianyu Museum of Nature's 
> > "world record" dinosaur collection)
> > From: heinrich.mallison@googlemail.com
> > To: keenir@hotmail.com
> >
> > On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 9:58 AM, Anthony Docimo wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ----------------------------------------
> > >> Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 08:15:51 +0200
> > >> Subject: Re: real or fake skeletons (was re Tianyu Museum of Nature's 
> > >> "world record" dinosaur collection)
> > >> From: heinrich.mallison@googlemail.com
> > >> To: keenir@hotmail.com
> > >>
> > >> no apology needed :)
> > >>
> > >> I have seen mounts where one skeleton (e.g., a supposed Beipiaosaurus
> > >> inexpectus) had parts of several theropod genera, psittacosaurs, and
> > >> non-dinosaurian archosaurs (usually crocodiles) combined. OUCH!
> > >
> > > so, is that the meaning of "fauna" as you used it?
> >
> > that is exactly what I meant: instead of one species, what you see
> > shows fragments of an entire faunal assemblage.
>
> that sounds...unlikely.
>
> though, when you noticed what was wrong, did you extend an offer to the 
> museum in question, to help them correct what was in err?
>
>
> > >> and as I wrote before: plaster casts labeled as such are not a
> > >> problem. It is claiming that something is real when it is not that
> > >> angers me.
> > >>
> > >> also, for example, in Tübingen, Berlin, Stuttgart the vast majority of
> > >> material is real. AMNH, NHM, etc? mostly real, too....
> > >
> > > ...but not labelled as such. that's what I said.
> > >
> >
> > but most ARE labelled as casts!
>
> not in the Smithsonian, where the public walks.
>
>
>
 
----------------------------------------
> Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 10:14:49 +0200
> Subject: Re: real or fake skeletons (was re Tianyu Museum of Nature's "world 
> record" dinosaur collection)
> From: heinrich.mallison@googlemail.com
> To: keenir@hotmail.com
>
> > that sounds...unlikely.
> >
> > though, when you noticed what was wrong, did you extend an offer to the 
> > museum in question, to help them correct what was in err?
> >
> >
> unlikely?
> have you ever been to China or some other place where vertebrate
> paleontology is practically inexistent as a science, compared to the
> size of the land, the people, and the number of finds? Amateurs do the
> weirdest things.... also, it is a cultural thing: the message is moire
> important than 100% authenticity to most Chinese.
>
> No, I am German, but I was not that impolite.
>
> >
> > not in the Smithsonian, where the public walks.
> >
> never been to the Smithsonian. Other places usually have a plaque that
> gives the main info, and the last line says that it is a cast or copy
> of this and that specimen in this and that musuem. Or is simply states
> "Original in this&that musuem".
>
> :)
 
 
----------------------------------------
> From: keenir@hotmail.com
> To: heinrich.mallison@googlemail.com; keenir@hotmail.com
> Subject: RE: real or fake skeletons (was re Tianyu Museum of Nature's "world 
> record" dinosaur collection)
> Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 08:24:47 +0000
>
>
>
>
> ----------------------------------------
> > Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 10:14:49 +0200
> > Subject: Re: real or fake skeletons (was re Tianyu Museum of Nature's 
> > "world record" dinosaur collection)
> > From: heinrich.mallison@googlemail.com
> > To: keenir@hotmail.com
> >
> > > that sounds...unlikely.
> > >
> > > though, when you noticed what was wrong, did you extend an offer to the 
> > > museum in question, to help them correct what was in err?
> > >
> > >
> > unlikely?
> > have you ever been to China or some other place where vertebrate
> > paleontology is practically inexistent as a science,
>
> yes
>
> > compared to the
> > size of the land, the people, and the number of finds? Amateurs do the
> > weirdest things....
>
> strange; and here I thought China had the government running its museums.
>
> > also, it is a cultural thing: the message is moire
> > important than 100% authenticity to most Chinese.
> >
> > No, I am German, but I was not that impolite.
>
> you were just now.
>
>
> >
> > >
> > > not in the Smithsonian, where the public walks.
> > >
> > never been to the Smithsonian. Other places usually have a plaque that
> > gives the main info, and the last line says that it is a cast or copy
> > of this and that specimen in this and that musuem. Or is simply states
> > "Original in this&that musuem".
> >
> > :)
 

----------------------------------------
> Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 10:34:06 +0200
> Subject: Re: real or fake skeletons (was re Tianyu Museum of Nature's "world 
> record" dinosaur collection)
> From: heinrich.mallison@googlemail.com
> To: keenir@hotmail.com
>
> On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 10:24 AM, Anthony Docimo wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------
> >> Date: Wed, 4 Aug 2010 10:14:49 +0200
> >> Subject: Re: real or fake skeletons (was re Tianyu Museum of Nature's 
> >> "world record" dinosaur collection)
> >> From: heinrich.mallison@googlemail.com
> >> To: keenir@hotmail.com
> >>
> >> > that sounds...unlikely.
> >> >
> >> > though, when you noticed what was wrong, did you extend an offer to the 
> >> > museum in question, to help them correct what was in err?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> unlikely?
> >> have you ever been to China or some other place where vertebrate
> >> paleontology is practically inexistent as a science,
> >
> > yes
> >
> >> compared to the
> >> size of the land, the people, and the number of finds? Amateurs do the
> >> weirdest things....
> >
> > strange; and here I thought China had the government running its museums.
>
> so why should that make a difference? If the government does not put a
> vertebrate paleontologist in the director's position, then an amateur
> is doing the job. Some do it well by our standards, some do it well by
> Chinese standards, some do a bad job by any standard.
>
> The fact remains that Western and Chinese standards differ, and what
> is a good job for them is a bad job for us (and, often, vice versa).
>
>
> >
> >> also, it is a cultural thing: the message is moire
> >> important than 100% authenticity to most Chinese.
> >>
> >> No, I am German, but I was not that impolite.
> >
> > you were just now.
> >
> hu? get real
>
> when I am an invited guest in a Chinese museum, I will NOT talk down
> to them and tell them that us Westerners think they do things badly.
> What I did was - when asked - point out what we'd do different. But
> unless one is a full professor, one should stay in one's place and
> wait to be asked for opinions, and for help.