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RE: Mosasaur bone structure and growth rates



Mike Taylor wrote:

<There has never been a taboo on citing non-reviewed publications. We all do it 
all the time. When a non-reviewed source is where the point to be cited was 
made, we just go ahead and cite it -- it's better than leaving it out, and a 
heck of a lot better than pers. comm.>

  I would regard there being a general taboo against citing "grey literature." 
Generally, dissertations are not cited in biological literature, and most work 
-- if not 99.9% of it -- is from the formal literature, to the point that works 
in popular magazines, even when they present useful visual data (e.g., 
_National Geographic_), are not cited (save in the historical context). They 
are not data. That they are in geological work (as in historical and 
anthropological) should not be to their credit: We should be able to track the 
work of reported material back to its very source, without having to do the 
legwork again -- that's the POINT of the literature! As for pers. comm.s, I 
argue that they should not be used at all, as well as citing "in press" work, 
as it cannot be followed or tracked at the time. It IS better to leave it out. 
Can we not include work that readers and students cannot follow without forcing 
them to unusual or torturous paths? Every author should have read and examined 
each work he or she cites (in the case of multiple authors, each person 
including the citation should have at least read the work in question _bar 
none_), and every potential reader should have access to that work; if one 
cannot reasonably be allowed access, you should not cite it, use information it 
exclusively carries, etc..

<Also I've been pleasantly surprised recently how open journals are becoming to 
citing blog posts -- for example, SV-POW! articles have recently been sited in 
the Bulletin of Zoological Nomenclature, Acta Palaeontologia Polonica and the 
Journal of Zoology.>

  Mike, what papers other than work you, Matt Wedel or Darren Naish have 
published have cited your blog in formal citation? I'd think that work citing 
blogs (especially how I can edit any of my posts at any time to say anything) 
should be reprehensible in that is defies the value of the citation: A 
permanent, indelible work to be referenced. Unless you are citing a cache 
object of a specific edit, I cannot see how that should have been able to pass 
editorial or peer review. If you WANT to do this, then creating PDF objects 
with embedded datestamps and some external verification and linking them to 
blogposts, then citing THOSE, would work better.

<If the dissertation discusses the material and the dissertation author has not 
superseded his own work with "published" versions, then working on the material 
entails citing the thesis -- it's the only honest thing to do.>

  No, it's the only LAZY thing to do while still citing something. You could 
always do the bloody legwork involved to get the thing published, either by 
cajoling the author or by finding a way to formalize the dissertation. Barring 
that, you can just restudy the material and note the historical value of the 
dissertation, but not citing it for discussion unless there was a permanent and 
accessible form of it available for review (i.e., any reader of the 
paper/manuscript).

Cheers,

Jaime A. Headden
The Bite Stuff (site v2)
http://qilong.wordpress.com/

"Innocent, unbiased observation is a myth." --- P.B. Medawar (1969)


"Ever since man first left his cave and met a stranger with a
different language and a new way of looking at things, the human race
has had a dream: to kill him, so we don't have to learn his language or
his new way of looking at things." --- Zapp Brannigan (Beast With a Billion 
Backs)





----------------------------------------
> From: mike@indexdata.com
> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 09:57:34 +0100
> Subject: Re: Mosasaur bone structure and growth rates
> To: qi_leong@hotmail.com
> CC: j.falconnet@gmail.com; Dinosaur.Mailing.List@listproc.usc.edu
>
> On 15 June 2011 09:46, Jaime Headden  wrote:
> > Many universities, most of them European, embargo their dissertations. 
> > These are often treated as formal and published works which can be cited, 
> > but tend not to be because other nations (the US is an example) treat their 
> > dissertations more openly, but do NOT consider them published. They are 
> > grey literature, and typically do not carry embargoes on their contents.
>
> Yes. This is precisely what I am saying should change.
>
> > I am thus in a double-blind: Either I must work from material that even 
> > interested parties may not be able to see, no matter how polite they are to 
> > me or my governing university, or I work from material that is available, 
> > but is taboo to cite because it lacks (say) peer review.
>
> There has never been a taboo on citing non-reviewed publications. We
> all do it all the time. When a non-reviewed source is where the point
> to be cited was made, we just go ahead and cite it -- it's better than
> leaving it out, and a heck of a lot better than pers. comm. (Also
> I've been pleasantly surprised recently how open journals are becoming
> to citing blog posts -- for example, SV-POW! articles have recently
> been sited in the Bulletin of Zoological Nomenclature, Acta
> Palaeontologia Polonica and the Journal of Zoology.)
>
> > That the work reanalyzes material from a dissertation is irrelevant: Such 
> > material should be published on first to create a citable framework which 
> > itself can be examined. I would be curious if the work in question 
> > (Houssaye & Bardet) could have performed their work based solely on the 
> > published discussion, or by working from the material directly, and never 
> > reference the dissertation? If so, then using the dissertation as a source 
> > becomes pointless.
>
> If the dissertation discusses the material and the dissertation author
> has not superseded his own work with "published" versions, then
> working on the material entails citing the thesis -- it's the only
> honest thing to do.
>
> -- Mike.
>
>
>
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> > Jaime A. Headden
> > The Bite Stuff (site v2)
> > http://qilong.wordpress.com/
> >
> > "Innocent, unbiased observation is a myth." --- P.B. Medawar (1969)
> >
> >
> > "Ever since man first left his cave and met a stranger with a
> > different language and a new way of looking at things, the human race
> > has had a dream: to kill him, so we don't have to learn his language or
> > his new way of looking at things." --- Zapp Brannigan (Beast With a Billion 
> > Backs)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------
> >> Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2011 09:28:24 +0200
> >> From: j.falconnet@gmail.com
> >> To: qi_leong@hotmail.com
> >> CC: bh480@scn.org; dinosaur@usc.edu
> >> Subject: Re: Mosasaur bone structure and growth rates
> >>
> >> ... but you obviously didn't read the paper. If you had had done so, you
> >> would have see that the authors reanalyzed the rib sections available in
> >> Sheldon's PhD (1995) and partly published later (Sheldon, 1997; Sheldon
> >> & Bell, 1998). Hence the citation of Sheldon's original work (provided
> >> by the author, btw). Also, even if the abstract is quite ambiguous
> >> ("available in Sheldon's PhD thesis" referring to the reanalysis or rib
> >> sections ?), the actual paper is not.
> >>
> >> I don't see any problem in reusing data available in a PhD dissertation.
> >> There is no nomenclatural, taxonomical, or moral issue here. Should we
> >> refrain from using measurements from dissertations because they are not
> >> published ? Reference to unpublished reports regarding quarries,
> >> borehole, or geological exploration in general is very common in local
> >> geology, for instance (e.g., BRGM for France, GSA for US, ...).
> >>
> >> Cordially,
> >> Jocelyn
> >>
> >> Le 14/06/2011 20:40, Jaime Headden a écrit :
> >> > I call foul. The paper is citing a thesis for a source, and not just 
> >> > that but it's in the ABSTRACT, too.
> >> >
> >> > Cheers,
> >> >
> >> > Jaime A. Headden
> >> > The Bite Stuff (site v2)
> >> > http://qilong.wordpress.com/
> >> >
> >> > "Innocent, unbiased observation is a myth." --- P.B. Medawar (1969)
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > "Ever since man first left his cave and met a stranger with a
> >> > different language and a new way of looking at things, the human race
> >> > has had a dream: to kill him, so we don't have to learn his language or
> >> > his new way of looking at things." --- Zapp Brannigan (Beast With a 
> >> > Billion Backs)
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > ----------------------------------------
> >> >> Date: Tue, 14 Jun 2011 12:56:22 -0400
> >> >> From: bh480@scn.org
> >> >> To: dinosaur@usc.edu
> >> >> Subject: Mosasaur bone structure and growth rates
> >> >>
> >> >> From: Ben Creisler
> >> >> bh480@scn.org
> >> >>
> >> >> Another new paper about mosasaurs:
> >> >>
> >> >> ALEXANDRA HOUSSAYE& NATHALIE BARDET (2011)
> >> >> Rib and vertebral micro-anatomical characteristics of hydropelvic
> >> >> mosasauroids.
> >> >> Lethaia (advance online publication)
> >> >> DOI: 10.1111/j.1502-3931.2011.00273.x
> >> >> http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1502-3931.2011.00273.x/abstract
> >> >>
> >> >> Mosasauroids are squamates secondarily adapted to an aquatic life that
> >> >> dominated the sea during the Late Cretaceous. Mosasauroids display 
> >> >> distinct
> >> >> types of morphologies illustrating steps in the adaptation of this 
> >> >> lineage
> >> >> to increasing obligatory habits. Hydropelvic mosasauroids (sensu 
> >> >> Caldwell&
> >> >> Palci) were the most highly adapted to an open-sea environment. 
> >> >> Contrary to
> >> >> plesiopelvic forms, they are considered to have relied on a 
> >> >> hydrodynamic,
> >> >> rather than hydrostatic buoyancy and body trim control strategies. This 
> >> >> led
> >> >> previous authors to consider that these taxa would favour bone 
> >> >> lightening
> >> >> (osteoporotic-like condition) rather than bone mass increase. Although 
> >> >> an
> >> >> osteoporotic-like state was indeed described in Clidastes and 
> >> >> Tylosaurus,
> >> >> bone mass increase was reported in Platecarpus. As a matter of fact, the
> >> >> new analysis of vertebral thin sections of various taxa combined with 
> >> >> the
> >> >> reanalysis of the rib sections available in Sheldon’s PhD thesis in a
> >> >> micro-anatomical perspective reveals the absence of both bone mass 
> >> >> increase
> >> >> and bone lightening in these organisms. These taxa in fact display a
> >> >> vertebral micro-anatomy much peculiar within squamates. It
> >> >> characteristically corresponds to a true network of thin trabeculae 
> >> >> whose
> >> >> tightness varies between taxa, probably as a result of both species and
> >> >> individual size differences, particularly the latter. In addition, 
> >> >> analysis
> >> >> of the pattern of vascularization as observed in hydropelvic 
> >> >> mosasauroids,
> >> >> which is unique amongst squamates, suggests that large size in 
> >> >> hydropelvic
> >> >> mosasauroids would mainly rely on protracted rather than faster growth
> >> >> rates.
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> >> mail2web - Check your email from the web at
> >> >> http://link.mail2web.com/mail2web
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
> >