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Re: Reductio Ad Absurdum. It is 1984 Dinosaur Time..!

One thing I feel that I'm missing in this is a real solid idea of how
large the paleoart market is. Are we talking about a market that has
shrunk in terms of parties paying for paleoart, or a market that's
about the same size but is not willing to pay as much as it once did?
Forgive me if this is a dumb question, but I can't get it off of my


David Orr

Orogenic Design: http://www.davidorogenic.com
Love in the Time of Chasmosaurs: http://chasmosaurs.blogspot.com
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/anatotitan

On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 12:03 PM, Mike Taylor <mike@indexdata.com> wrote:
> On 15 March 2011 15:49, Bob Tess <bobtess@dinoart.com> wrote:
> > Actually Mike, when I first entered the field I did NOT have to work so hard
> > to keep a roof over my head.
> > I was young so  could take my chances without health insurance which now
> > costs us $12,000 per year.
> > Energy costs were only a fraction of what they are now.
> > We have to take care of an elderly parent.
> > We couldn't live on burger flipper wages if we wanted to.
> > This work takes a certain number of hours to do the research and execute the
> > paintings, and it takes a certain amount of money to live in America.
> > The problem is that paleoart doesn't pay that well even when you are
> > well-established.
> > Is Greg living in a mansion?  no.
> > Tess and I do the best possible work we can and we are considered by many to
> > be at the top of our profession and we still barely get by month-to-month.
> > Are you asking those of us who have devoted ourselves to the field to just
> > bow out and go away so the purchasers of dinosaur art can get the work
> > cheaper?
> No.  I am asking you not to try to prohibit others from working their
> way into the profession, just as you did.  I am speaking of young
> artists who can take their chances without health insurance, who do
> not yet have to take care of an elderly parent.
> It is OF COURSE perfectly reasonable that you and Tess, and Greg,
> should charge whatever you think fair for your work.  In fact, it's
> perfectly reasonable for you to charge MORE than you think is fair, so
> long as the market will bear it.  If some Silicon Valley IPO
> millionaire wants a Greg Paul original and is prepared to pay $250,000
> for it, then of course Greg is within his rights to sell it at that
> price, even if he believes a fairer price would have been $25,000 or
> even $2,500.
> All of that is reasonable.  What is not reasonable is seeking to
> constrain what others may charge -- people who neither have the same
> living expenses as you, nor the same advantages of experience and
> brand recognition.  That's all.
> I absolutely wish you the very best of luck in monetising your work in
> the most advantageous way.  But I wish the same to ALL palaeoartists,
> not just those whose names are already widely known.
> -- Mike.
> > Can you wonder why we take it personally?
> > There is much less work to go around in paleoart than there is in computer
> > programming so that comparison is a bit skewed..
> > This has gotten mean now.
> > I'm in a bad mood. Maybe I should back away from the keyboard
> > You're fucking with people's livlihoods.
> >
> >
> > On Mar 15, 2011, at 11:12 AM, Mike Taylor wrote:
> >
> >> On 15 March 2011 14:56, Bob Tess <bobtess@dinoart.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> How will they make a living by undercutting prices?
> >>> Do they think they can have a mortgage by going cheap?
> >>> No, all they can do is ruin the field and live in their parents' basement
> >>> the rest of their lives.
> >>
> >> Really, Bob?  Really?  When you first entered the field, did you
> >> charge then what you charge now?  Before you had a reputation and a
> >> portfolio to lean on?  When you didn't have such heavy financial
> >> responsibilities as you do now?  Or did you start at the bottom,
> >> charging lower fees to get your early work, and then escalating as you
> >> publicly earned the right to?
> >>
> >> When I started my own professional life (as a computer programmer), I
> >> didn't apply for jobs that pay what I am earning now; in fact, in my
> >> first full-time professional job, I was paid less than a quarter of
> >> what I earn now (and I couldn't afford a mortgage on that -- I had to
> >> rent a room to live in.)  Over time, as my experience and expertise
> >> increased, I was able to apply successfully for more prestigious and
> >> lucrative jobs (and eventually to get that mortgage, support a family,
> >> etc.)  Happily, it turns out that I didn't "ruin the field" along the
> >> way.
> >>
> >> Isn't that how it works in every profession?
> >>
> >> In insisting that people starting out in palaeoart not undercut your
> >> prices, you and Greg are trying to effectively make it that there are
> >> no entry-level jobs in palaeoart, and consequently no way for
> >> newcomers to the field to get a foot on the ladder.  To speak frankly,
> >> whatever your and Greg's actual intention, this comes across as a
> >> self-serving attempt to erect a barrier to entry into the field, and
> >> to keep all the work for a small number of Boys' Club members.  I hope
> >> and trust that I am misreading your intentions, but that's how it
> >> LOOKS, and if I see it that way then you can bet that lots of the
> >> up-and-coming palaeoartists will see it the same way.
> >>
> >> And whether you intend it or not, a mandatory minimum price would most
> >> certainly have a chilling effect on newcomers to the field of
> >> palaeoart.  I don't think that's something that we as a community can,
> >> in good conscience, support.
> >>
> >> Competition for work in the field of palaeoart is by reputation,
> >> quality and price.  You, Greg and other established names have a clear
> >> advantage in the first of these (and, if we take Greg's claims at face
> >> value, in the second, too).  You can't just legislate that the third
> >> isn't to be a factor.  When I apply for programming work, I have to
> >> compete on quality against less experienced candidates who charge less
> >> than I do.  Why shouldn't it be the same in palaeoart?
> >>
> >> -- Mike.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Mar 15, 2011, at 10:49 AM, Mike Taylor wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 15 March 2011 14:41, Bob Tess <bobtess@dinoart.com> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I have become sickened by this thread.  I can think of no other
> >>>>> profession
> >>>>> besides art where people feel justified in telling other people they
> >>>>> should
> >>>>> not be allowed to make a living.
> >>>>
> >>>> I assume you're referring here to Greg's telling young artists that
> >>>> they're not allowed to establish themselves in the profession by
> >>>> charging less than him?
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >
> >
> >