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Re: Clarification of scope of paleoart->uses

Just for clarification, say I want to do a skeletal restoration 
of, say, Triceratops (which i do and have). I can do it for 
one of two basic reasons: to use in a book/poster/video I intend 
to sell for profit (directly or indirectly), or i can do it for 
a professional article. 

I assume your (Greg) objections to doing a derivative of one 
of your skeletal restorations applies only if the person is 
doing it for a book/poster/video they want to sell and *not* 
if they're doing it to include in a technical article..? (if 
this was answered in a previous post, i haven't had time to 
read them all yet.) 

Scientific research builds on previous research. I think most 
people consider your (Greg Paul's) work to be as much science 
as it is art. I think it's mostly or entirely science because 
there's not a whole lot of artistic license in reconstructing 
a dinosaur skeleton (i'm talking about your skeletal 
restorations now, not your other drawings and paintings). 
Unfortunately, you don't get any cash when someone uses (or 
derives) your work for an academic paper, although a note in 
the acknowledgements never hurts. 

--- On Tue, 3/15/11, GSP1954@aol.com <GSP1954@aol.com> wrote:

> From: GSP1954@aol.com <GSP1954@aol.com>
> Subject: Clarification of scope of paleoart market and other items
> To: dinosaur@usc.edu, vrtpaleo@usc.edu
> Date: Tuesday, March 15, 2011, 2:58 PM
> An unfortunate problem with these
> discussions is that persons who just do 
> not know about the issue seem to be obsessed with making
> arguments that are 
> so disconnected from reality that they are from a galaxy
> far, far away. This 
> has been happening with some really silly notions on what
> and how 
> paleoartists can earn. This is bad because then those in
> paleontology may have a major 
> misimpression of what is going on with the paleoartists
> they often work 
> with. 
> Some fellow actually suggested that a certain noted artist
> might earn, say 
> a quarter million on a single painting. Let me be clear
> about this. There is 
> absolutely no significant adult market for original paleo
> paintings in 
> existence. There was one briefly after the first JP came
> out in Japan and some 
> artists earned modest amounts, but then their economy went
> belly up. 
> Lazendorf, a famed hair dresser with top level clientele
> packed his high rise 
> apartment to the gills for a few years, and then sold it
> off for a lot of money 
> and switched I hear to Asian art. 
> There are a number of fellow paleo nerds who would love to
> have Hallett, 
> Gurchie or Paul on their walls. And they can only afford
> posters. Considering 
> the time etc involved it does not make sense to sell an
> original color of 
> say 3x4 ft for less than some thousands of dollars. I have
> a website and I am 
> easy to contact and have not sold an original to a private
> collector for 
> years. As far as I know much the same applies to other
> paleoartists. Many a 
> time I have been asked if I sell originals and when I tell
> them how much they 
> are unable to proceed (also, because I modify old work a
> lot selling it off 
> is not the best). 
> A quarter million for a dinosaur painting, come on. 
> And I wish. 
> Now, maybe setting up a paleoartist site that includes a
> venue for 
> promoting original art will improve matters. One can doubt
> that it will, but it it 
> might work and is worth a try. Even if it does it will take
> years to build up 
> clientele and no one will get rich that way.  
> Books. Back when I did PDW, repped by top NY agent Brockman
> to a top NY 
> publisher, it was the last few years that that was
> possible. The only adult 
> dino books a major publisher will even come close to
> considering these days is 
> a narrative tradebook, and the publishers actually require
> that it include 
> minimal illustrations to keep down production costs and
> because they fear 
> they turn off readers. If you do not believe this then you
> contact the 
> tradebook agents and see what they tell you. I know the
> business. In general only 
> university presses pick up those kinds of books these days
> and they cannot pay 
> useful advances and sales are so limited that they are in
> effect vanity 
> books. 
> But what about kidsbooks? I and others have approached a
> number of juvenile 
> book publishers and agents and no takers. (Maybe you
> noticed I have not 
> done kidsbooks, that's why). Am not entirely sure why this
> is, probably has to 
> do with publishers keeping costs down by using derivative
> art that basically 
> rips some of us off. I was once on the verge of a big deal
> but the 
> publisher at that moment decided to concentrate on fiction
> works do to changing 
> market forces. 
> Kids products and other licensing. A couple of agents
> repped my work and 
> got nowhere. Again producers prefer to keep their costs
> down rather than pay 
> significant up front fees or royalties. 
> I have been told by product representatives that art
> derivative of mine 
> seriously impairs my ability to get work, and that I need
> to do something about 
> it. Which I am doing. 
> Exhibits. This remains an important source of income. But
> musuem and 
> science center exhibits managers chronically plead poverty
> (because they 
> overdesign their exhibits relative to their budgets) and
> drive down payments to below 
> acceptable levels. Because there are so many paleoartists
> willing to work 
> for peanuts many are taking advantage of this situation.
> Also, there just are 
> not that many paleoexhibits in production at a given time.
> Dino docs. Because cable programming is marginally funded
> the producers 
> always plead poverty. Because of under cost competition --
> some derivative of 
> my work, some not -- I don't get that sort of work these
> days. 
> How about selling stuff on the web? Ha, ha, ha, ha. That's
> one of the great 
> jokes of the digital era. 
> Someone was going on about how some paleoartists can charge
> lower prices 
> because they are "more efficient." What a disconnect from
> reality and plain 
> common sense. Doing dinosaur art is not following Moore's
> Law. Using copiers 
> to quickly resize elements does help a little. But doing
> ORIGINAL dinosaur 
> restorations is ALWAYS a long, tedious process that takes
> lots and lots of 
> research including digging through often old and hard to
> get publications and 
> travel. Using computers for rendering basic skeletons does
> not seem to save 
> time (and I seem to catch more errors when using old analog
> methods, and the 
> computer produced skeletons out there seem prone to low
> levesl of fidelity). 
> I am as efficient as anyone when it comes to doing real
> paleoart. The one 
> way to seem to become more efficient in this specialty is
> to be derivative 
> rather than original, and basically use the published work
> of others to gain 
> an edge on those very artists. 
> And someone was giving us paleoartists wise and sage advice
> about how 
> perhaps we should understand that because there is so much
> competition (much of 
> which is derivative) that we should accept it being mere
> part time work that 
> we do on the side. Aside from making us into mere amateurs,
> if I did that 
> then I could not have produced all those nice skeletal
> restorations so many 
> seem to really like (and in some cases use for their
> paleoart that then 
> competes with mines). 
> Think about. Really, think it through. 
> To be blunt about it, if you are considering getting into
> paleoart, think 
> about it twice, three, times and then four. The paleomarket
> will always be 
> too small to sustain a large number of artists. Even so, I
> do think that the 
> situation can be significantly improved if certain steps
> are taken.  
> These discussions on these lists, although far more
> extensive than I 
> thought they would be and perhaps tedious to those not
> involved in the issue 
> (rather tedious to me for that matter), are very important
> to the field of vert 
> paleo, and should have occurred long ago -- I have perhaps
> been tardy in 
> waiting to bring up these issues. But one reason the
> discussion is longer -- and 
> more vehment -- than it perhaps needs to be is because some
> who are not 
> familiar with the paleoart facts continue to feel obliged
> to lecture us 
> paleoartists, sometimes harshly -- about what we should to.
> Don't do that. And if 
> you are going to debate me remember that I have long had
> contacts with top 
> agents, attorneys etc, and of course I have little patience
> for tendentious 
> arguments from those who lack sufficient knowledge to
> dispute the facts that I 
> lay out. Treat me and others who have been in the bizz
> awhile with some  
> respect. 
> And never tell me, "but Greg, your work is so good, surely
> there is big 
> demand for it if you just get the right agent" or so forth.
> Have heard that one 
> before. 
> G Paul 
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