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Re: Willinakaqe



Dudes, you seem to know a lot, but here are some questions

2011/5/13 David Marjanovic <david.marjanovic@gmx.at>:
>
> Wait a minute.
> First, you _didn't_ use this orthography. You used the Azumchefi/Azümchefe
> orthography, the only one that uses both q and ll.
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mapudungun_alphabet

How do you know what orthography we used? I do not try to be defiant
here, really I do not know which one we followed, and forgot to cite
any dictionary. I will have to ask my friend Juárez Valieri...
>
> Second, the Ragileo orthography (as Wikipedia calls it) uses one letter for
> every sound. As a consequence, it uses some letters in very idiosyncratic
> ways.*

So is it a defective system because of this? In such a case, why?

> V is not at all what you think it is; it is a vowel that is written ü
> or y in the other orthographies
>
As far as I understand, not according to Raguileo, in the citation I
made before, which considers it as a variable "semi-vowel" or
"semiconsonant". Thanks for the sound files. The most similar they
sound in Spanish is like "u" (as sounds in the end of the word
"Mobutu" in English). I suppose "v" is the closer there is among
consonants to the Spanish sound of the vowel "u", thus explaining its
similarity to the sound of the "w", and the use of "v" in place of the
"u" in old Castilian and Latin writings.

> According to the table in the Wikipedia article, this system nonetheless
> distinguishes y and j.
>
I do not understand the reason of this. Because we did not use these
two characters in the name.

2011/5/13 bh480@scn.org <bh480@scn.org>:
> From: Ben Creisler
> bh480@scn.org
>
> I read through the pdf of Mapuche cited
> and it's clear that it uses a very different spellings to transcribe sounds
> and so is not a reliable guide when applied to the spelling Willinakaqe.
> ... The
> transcription system in the Wikipedia article uses "g" for this sound.
>
What makes the Raguileo system less reliable than other sources,
including Wikipedia, as to be so easily dismissed when dealing with
Willinakaqe?
>
> I would point out that the local Spanish speakers in the region where
> Mapuche is spoken use the name "pato cague" for a local duck, borrowing the
> Mapuche word for duck kaqe (also transcribed as  kage and cage depending on
> the spelling system), indicating that that consonant sounds like a "g" to
> Spanish-speaking ears. See:
> http://www.patagonialands.com/diccionariomapuche/contenidogk.html

Nice point. However, as far as I was told, there are local variations
in this language. Although our animal is from Argentina, and the
source I cite is Chilean, while yours is Argentinian, I am not sure if
the writing of this particular word, kaqe, is different in Chile. I
suppose it is not, for the writing systems, either from Raguileo or
Azümchefe, come from Chile.

Also, I never heard of a local duck called "pato cague". Consulting a
guide of Argentinian birds, I was unable to find it. There are many
Patagonian anatids, however, called "cauquén", which seems to have
similar roots. Here the word sounds as in Spanish, however.

> The sound "ll" sound in willi would be transcribed as "j" in the system
> used in the pdf.

Well, in my viewpoint the conclusion should not be to dismiss Raguileo
because what is pronouced "willi" would be written "wiji", but that
the "ll" written in "willi" does not sound as "ll" in Spanish. Or are
you sure the "ll" in "Willi" sounds as in the Spanish "ll" in
Mapudungun?

> As I said, I was trying to find a natural way to pronounce Willinakaqe in
> English, which requires a stress accent. Putting the accent on the
> next-to-last syllable I think makes it easier for an English speaker to
> pronounce.  So I stick with the English approximation:
> weel-yee-nah-KAH-gay.
> A Spanish speaker would pronounce it differently, probably using the
> Spanish "ll" sound and a fricative "g" for the q. In Spanish spelling,
> maybe something like:
> hui-llin-a-CA-ge

This last "g" would sound as the English non-mute "h". For it to sound
as English "g", it needs a "u" (which is mute) between "g" and "e".
Although I do not know the significance of the accent in Mapudungun,
according to my citations of the system by Raguileo, in Spanish the
stress may go on whatever syllable as far as I know, and there would
not be rule, or special difficulty, as it is not a Spanish word. If it
turns to be that Raguileo is right and the stress is not important for
pronunciation, each language would be free to use stress as it better
fits their pronunciation rules.