[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index][Subject Index][Author Index]

Re: Willinakaqe



Based on what I read in the messages and the Haro Augusto query, is
that I write this mail.

I live and work in Patagonia, and for years I have been in contact
with Mapuche people and their direct descendants. In this interaction
and while drinking mate (local tea) I have consulted on how the
Mapuche language could say some like  “the southern duck mimic”

Obviously the various proposals on how to write the words in Mapuche
are many, and there is no dictionary or common consensus.
.
Since this is not a dead language, I chose to take it directly from
the Mapuche speakers and not a treaty on how someone tried to take
this language to fit with the western alphabet.


Regards, Ruben.




2011/5/13 Augusto Haro <augustoharo@gmail.com>:
> Dudes, you seem to know a lot, but here are some questions
>
> 2011/5/13 David Marjanovic <david.marjanovic@gmx.at>:
>>
>> Wait a minute.
>> First, you _didn't_ use this orthography. You used the Azumchefi/Azümchefe
>> orthography, the only one that uses both q and ll.
>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mapudungun_alphabet
>
> How do you know what orthography we used? I do not try to be defiant
> here, really I do not know which one we followed, and forgot to cite
> any dictionary. I will have to ask my friend Juárez Valieri...
>>
>> Second, the Ragileo orthography (as Wikipedia calls it) uses one letter for
>> every sound. As a consequence, it uses some letters in very idiosyncratic
>> ways.*
>
> So is it a defective system because of this? In such a case, why?
>
>> V is not at all what you think it is; it is a vowel that is written ü
>> or y in the other orthographies
>>
> As far as I understand, not according to Raguileo, in the citation I
> made before, which considers it as a variable "semi-vowel" or
> "semiconsonant". Thanks for the sound files. The most similar they
> sound in Spanish is like "u" (as sounds in the end of the word
> "Mobutu" in English). I suppose "v" is the closer there is among
> consonants to the Spanish sound of the vowel "u", thus explaining its
> similarity to the sound of the "w", and the use of "v" in place of the
> "u" in old Castilian and Latin writings.
>
>> According to the table in the Wikipedia article, this system nonetheless
>> distinguishes y and j.
>>
> I do not understand the reason of this. Because we did not use these
> two characters in the name.
>
> 2011/5/13 bh480@scn.org <bh480@scn.org>:
>> From: Ben Creisler
>> bh480@scn.org
>>
>> I read through the pdf of Mapuche cited
>> and it's clear that it uses a very different spellings to transcribe sounds
>> and so is not a reliable guide when applied to the spelling Willinakaqe.
>> ... The
>> transcription system in the Wikipedia article uses "g" for this sound.
>>
> What makes the Raguileo system less reliable than other sources,
> including Wikipedia, as to be so easily dismissed when dealing with
> Willinakaqe?
>>
>> I would point out that the local Spanish speakers in the region where
>> Mapuche is spoken use the name "pato cague" for a local duck, borrowing the
>> Mapuche word for duck kaqe (also transcribed as  kage and cage depending on
>> the spelling system), indicating that that consonant sounds like a "g" to
>> Spanish-speaking ears. See:
>> http://www.patagonialands.com/diccionariomapuche/contenidogk.html
>
> Nice point. However, as far as I was told, there are local variations
> in this language. Although our animal is from Argentina, and the
> source I cite is Chilean, while yours is Argentinian, I am not sure if
> the writing of this particular word, kaqe, is different in Chile. I
> suppose it is not, for the writing systems, either from Raguileo or
> Azümchefe, come from Chile.
>
> Also, I never heard of a local duck called "pato cague". Consulting a
> guide of Argentinian birds, I was unable to find it. There are many
> Patagonian anatids, however, called "cauquén", which seems to have
> similar roots. Here the word sounds as in Spanish, however.
>
>> The sound "ll" sound in willi would be transcribed as "j" in the system
>> used in the pdf.
>
> Well, in my viewpoint the conclusion should not be to dismiss Raguileo
> because what is pronouced "willi" would be written "wiji", but that
> the "ll" written in "willi" does not sound as "ll" in Spanish. Or are
> you sure the "ll" in "Willi" sounds as in the Spanish "ll" in
> Mapudungun?
>
>> As I said, I was trying to find a natural way to pronounce Willinakaqe in
>> English, which requires a stress accent. Putting the accent on the
>> next-to-last syllable I think makes it easier for an English speaker to
>> pronounce.  So I stick with the English approximation:
>> weel-yee-nah-KAH-gay.
>> A Spanish speaker would pronounce it differently, probably using the
>> Spanish "ll" sound and a fricative "g" for the q. In Spanish spelling,
>> maybe something like:
>> hui-llin-a-CA-ge
>
> This last "g" would sound as the English non-mute "h". For it to sound
> as English "g", it needs a "u" (which is mute) between "g" and "e".
> Although I do not know the significance of the accent in Mapudungun,
> according to my citations of the system by Raguileo, in Spanish the
> stress may go on whatever syllable as far as I know, and there would
> not be rule, or special difficulty, as it is not a Spanish word. If it
> turns to be that Raguileo is right and the stress is not important for
> pronunciation, each language would be free to use stress as it better
> fits their pronunciation rules.
>



-- 
Rubén Darío Juárez Valieri
Museo Provincial Carlos Ameghino
Belgrano 2150, CP: 8324
Cipolletti, Río Negro
Patagonia Argentina
rubendjuarez@gmail.com
+5492941346211