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Re: Willinakaqe



When i wrote in my anterior mail:

Obviously the various proposals on how to write the words in Mapuche
are many, and there is no dictionary or common consensus.

i wanted to write:

Obviously the various proposals on how to write the words in Mapuche
are many, and there is no A OFFICIAL dictionary or common consensus.


Greetings.


El día 13 de mayo de 2011 18:34, Rubén Juárez <rubendjuarez@gmail.com> escribió:
> Based on what I read in the messages and the Haro Augusto query, is
> that I write this mail.
>
> I live and work in Patagonia, and for years I have been in contact
> with Mapuche people and their direct descendants. In this interaction
> and while drinking mate (local tea) I have consulted on how the
> Mapuche language could say some like  “the southern duck mimic”
>
> Obviously the various proposals on how to write the words in Mapuche
> are many, and there is no dictionary or common consensus.
> .
> Since this is not a dead language, I chose to take it directly from
> the Mapuche speakers and not a treaty on how someone tried to take
> this language to fit with the western alphabet.
>
>
> Regards, Ruben.
>
>
>
>
> 2011/5/13 Augusto Haro <augustoharo@gmail.com>:
>> Dudes, you seem to know a lot, but here are some questions
>>
>> 2011/5/13 David Marjanovic <david.marjanovic@gmx.at>:
>>>
>>> Wait a minute.
>>> First, you _didn't_ use this orthography. You used the Azumchefi/Azümchefe
>>> orthography, the only one that uses both q and ll.
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mapudungun_alphabet
>>
>> How do you know what orthography we used? I do not try to be defiant
>> here, really I do not know which one we followed, and forgot to cite
>> any dictionary. I will have to ask my friend Juárez Valieri...
>>>
>>> Second, the Ragileo orthography (as Wikipedia calls it) uses one letter for
>>> every sound. As a consequence, it uses some letters in very idiosyncratic
>>> ways.*
>>
>> So is it a defective system because of this? In such a case, why?
>>
>>> V is not at all what you think it is; it is a vowel that is written ü
>>> or y in the other orthographies
>>>
>> As far as I understand, not according to Raguileo, in the citation I
>> made before, which considers it as a variable "semi-vowel" or
>> "semiconsonant". Thanks for the sound files. The most similar they
>> sound in Spanish is like "u" (as sounds in the end of the word
>> "Mobutu" in English). I suppose "v" is the closer there is among
>> consonants to the Spanish sound of the vowel "u", thus explaining its
>> similarity to the sound of the "w", and the use of "v" in place of the
>> "u" in old Castilian and Latin writings.
>>
>>> According to the table in the Wikipedia article, this system nonetheless
>>> distinguishes y and j.
>>>
>> I do not understand the reason of this. Because we did not use these
>> two characters in the name.
>>
>> 2011/5/13 bh480@scn.org <bh480@scn.org>:
>>> From: Ben Creisler
>>> bh480@scn.org
>>>
>>> I read through the pdf of Mapuche cited
>>> and it's clear that it uses a very different spellings to transcribe sounds
>>> and so is not a reliable guide when applied to the spelling Willinakaqe.
>>> ... The
>>> transcription system in the Wikipedia article uses "g" for this sound.
>>>
>> What makes the Raguileo system less reliable than other sources,
>> including Wikipedia, as to be so easily dismissed when dealing with
>> Willinakaqe?
>>>
>>> I would point out that the local Spanish speakers in the region where
>>> Mapuche is spoken use the name "pato cague" for a local duck, borrowing the
>>> Mapuche word for duck kaqe (also transcribed as  kage and cage depending on
>>> the spelling system), indicating that that consonant sounds like a "g" to
>>> Spanish-speaking ears. See:
>>> http://www.patagonialands.com/diccionariomapuche/contenidogk.html
>>
>> Nice point. However, as far as I was told, there are local variations
>> in this language. Although our animal is from Argentina, and the
>> source I cite is Chilean, while yours is Argentinian, I am not sure if
>> the writing of this particular word, kaqe, is different in Chile. I
>> suppose it is not, for the writing systems, either from Raguileo or
>> Azümchefe, come from Chile.
>>
>> Also, I never heard of a local duck called "pato cague". Consulting a
>> guide of Argentinian birds, I was unable to find it. There are many
>> Patagonian anatids, however, called "cauquén", which seems to have
>> similar roots. Here the word sounds as in Spanish, however.
>>
>>> The sound "ll" sound in willi would be transcribed as "j" in the system
>>> used in the pdf.
>>
>> Well, in my viewpoint the conclusion should not be to dismiss Raguileo
>> because what is pronouced "willi" would be written "wiji", but that
>> the "ll" written in "willi" does not sound as "ll" in Spanish. Or are
>> you sure the "ll" in "Willi" sounds as in the Spanish "ll" in
>> Mapudungun?
>>
>>> As I said, I was trying to find a natural way to pronounce Willinakaqe in
>>> English, which requires a stress accent. Putting the accent on the
>>> next-to-last syllable I think makes it easier for an English speaker to
>>> pronounce.  So I stick with the English approximation:
>>> weel-yee-nah-KAH-gay.
>>> A Spanish speaker would pronounce it differently, probably using the
>>> Spanish "ll" sound and a fricative "g" for the q. In Spanish spelling,
>>> maybe something like:
>>> hui-llin-a-CA-ge
>>
>> This last "g" would sound as the English non-mute "h". For it to sound
>> as English "g", it needs a "u" (which is mute) between "g" and "e".
>> Although I do not know the significance of the accent in Mapudungun,
>> according to my citations of the system by Raguileo, in Spanish the
>> stress may go on whatever syllable as far as I know, and there would
>> not be rule, or special difficulty, as it is not a Spanish word. If it
>> turns to be that Raguileo is right and the stress is not important for
>> pronunciation, each language would be free to use stress as it better
>> fits their pronunciation rules.
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Rubén Darío Juárez Valieri
> Museo Provincial Carlos Ameghino
> Belgrano 2150, CP: 8324
> Cipolletti, Río Negro
> Patagonia Argentina
> rubendjuarez@gmail.com
> +5492941346211
>



-- 
Rubén Darío Juárez Valieri
Museo Provincial Carlos Ameghino
Belgrano 2150, CP: 8324
Cipolletti, Río Negro
Patagonia Argentina
rubendjuarez@gmail.com
+5492941346211