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Re: Plateosaurus skull redescribed



Well, Moser say that the type series contains diagnostic material,
picks a lectotype (the sacrum), and show that the sacra of the
Trossingen material w. skulls cannot be  distinguished. Thus, *all* is
P. engelhardti.

Peter Galton seems not to believe this, but Galton did show that all
Trossingen and Halberstadt skulls are the same. He called them P.
longiceps. So this seems to be a question of priority between two
junior synonyms, unless the new article shows Moser wrong about the
sacra.
I am getting more and more curious.....

:)
H
___________________________________
Dr. Heinrich Mallison
Abteilung Forschung
Museum für Naturkunde - Leibniz-Institut
für Evolutions- und Biodiversitätsforschung
an der Humboldt-Universität zu Berlin
Invalidenstrasse 43
10115 Berlin
Office phone: +49 (0)30 2093 8764
Email: heinrich.mallison@gmail.com
_____________________________________
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.
Gaius Julius Caeser




On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 8:05 PM, Michael Lange <Michael.Lange@gmx.ch> wrote:
> and, if P. erlenbergensis is valid, what material remains from P. engelhardti?
>
> The occurrence of P. erlenbergiensis should be (see p. 49):
>
> Various Middle-Late Norian (Late Triassic) formations, including the 
> Trossingen (Baden-Württemberg, Germany), Knollenmergel (Niedersachsen and 
> Sachsen-Anhalt, Germany), Obere Bunte Mergel (Aargau, Switzerland), Marnes 
> Irisées Supérieures (Jura and Doubs, France), and Fleming Fjord (eastern 
> Greenland) Formations (Galton and Upchurch, 2004).
>
> So can only the type and other material from Bavaria described by Moser 
> (2004) be referred to P. engelhardti and is all the other material, 
> especially from the mass-occurences in Trossingen, Halberstadt and Frick P. 
> erlenbergiensis?
>
> Michael
>
> -------- Original-Nachricht --------
>> Datum: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 19:37:57 +0100
>> Von: Heinrich Mallison <heinrich.mallison@googlemail.com>
>> An: bh480@scn.org
>> CC: dinosaur@usc.edu
>> Betreff: Re: Plateosaurus skull redescribed
>
>> that's really odd, because P. erlenbergensis is a junior synonym to P.
>> engelhardti according to Moser 2003 based on the SACRUM - so the SKULL
>> alone is not enough to resurrect P. erlenbergensis. There is, btw, no
>> holo- or lectotype skull to compare to, so you need to deal with the
>> sacrum.....
>>
>> I can't imagine that the new paper results from a mis- (or
>> non-)reading of Moser 2003, as is otherwise often the case with German
>> papers. There is an extensive English summary at the end that states,
>> among other things:
>>
>> "Plateosaurus engel­hardti MEYER, 1837 includes the following
>> subjective  junior synonyms: Dimodosaurus poligniensis,
>> Gresslyosaurus robus­ tus, Gresslyosaurus torgeri, Pachysaurus ajax,
>> Pachysaurus gi­ganteus; Pachysaurus magnus, Pachysaurus wetzelianus,
>> Pla­ teosaurus erlenbergiensis, Plateosaurus longiceps, Plateosaurus
>> plieningeri, Plateosaurus reinigeri, and Plateosaurus trossin­gensis."
>>
>> I *really* look forward to reading this one.
>>
>>
>> ___________________________________
>> Dr. Heinrich Mallison
>> Abteilung Forschung
>> Museum für Naturkunde - Leibniz-Institut
>> für Evolutions- und Biodiversitätsforschung
>> an der Humboldt-Universität zu Berlin
>> Invalidenstrasse 43
>> 10115 Berlin
>> Office phone: +49 (0)30 2093 8764
>> Email: heinrich.mallison@gmail.com
>> _____________________________________
>> Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.
>> Gaius Julius Caeser
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 6:53 PM, bh480@scn.org <bh480@scn.org> wrote:
>> > From: Ben Creisler
>> > bh480@scn.org
>> >
>> > A new paper available through Bioone. The paper has not been posted yet
>> for
>> > free on the AMNH site.
>> >
>> >
>> > Albert Prieto-Márquez and Mark A. Norell (2011)
>> > Redescription of a Nearly Complete Skull of Plateosaurus (Dinosauria:
>> > Sauropodomorpha) from the Late Triassic of Trossingen (Germany).
>> > American Museum Novitates Number 3727 :1-58. 2011
>> > doi: http://dx.doi.org/10.1206/3727.2
>> > http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.1206/3727.2
>> >
>> >
>> > The nearly complete, disarticulated skull of AMNH FARB 6810, a specimen
>> of
>> > the basal sauropodomorph Plateosaurus collected in 1925 from the Norian
>> > (Late Triassic) strata of the Knollenmergel beds of Trossingen
>> (Germany),
>> > is redescribed. This study supports referral of AMNH FARB 6810 to P.
>> > erlenbergiensis on the basis of the following characters: occipital
>> condyle
>> > above level of parasphenoid; basisphenoid with transverse, subvertical
>> > lamina extending between basipterygoid processes, with ventrally
>> projecting
>> > median process; and peglike process projecting medially from the middle
>> of
>> > the palatine. Furthermore, P. longiceps is regarded a junior synonym of
>> P.
>> > erlenbergiensis because the type specimen of the latter is diagnostic
>> > (displaying the above-noted apomorphies of the braincase and palatine)
>> and,
>> > chronologically, P. erlenbergiensis has priority over P. longiceps.
>> >
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>
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