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Re: Plateosaurus skull redescribed



It seems Albert Prieto-Márquez and Mark A. Norell simply AVOID the
issue of Moser (2003), they mention that he reduced the material to
one species, then move on to address that other studies still
recognize two species, one of which is P. longiceps. Because P.
erlenbergensis Huene 1905 has precedent ofer P. longiceps Jaekel
1913-1914, the AMNH specimens is P. erlenbergensis.

So, simply said, they IGNORE the Moser study, because there is "no
consensus". They cite is once (according to a sarch for the term
"Moser" in the PDF), noting that Moser recognized only one species -
that's all.
However, with the exception of Sereno 2007, there is no study WRITTEN
and REVIEWED after the appearance of Moser 2003 that accepts P.
longiceps as vaild, at least to my knowledge.  Prieto-Márquez and
Norell cite Galton and Upchruch 2004 - that's Dinosauria 2nd Edition,
quite clearly NOT witten with knowledge of Moser 2003! Moser 2003 is
NOT in the reference list!

The last real study, Yates 2003, accepts P. longiceps and P.
erlenbergensis as junior synonyms of P. engelhardti.

So, in sum, it all stands as it was: Moser says it is all P.
engelhardti (plus there is more material, but none of the species he
lists are real), and so far nobody has come forward with reason to
doubt that.

*phew*, saves me a major re-write of the wikipedia article ;)
Heinrich



___________________________________
Dr. Heinrich Mallison
Abteilung Forschung
Museum für Naturkunde - Leibniz-Institut
für Evolutions- und Biodiversitätsforschung
an der Humboldt-Universität zu Berlin
Invalidenstrasse 43
10115 Berlin
Office phone: +49 (0)30 2093 8764
Email: heinrich.mallison@gmail.com
_____________________________________
Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.
Gaius Julius Caeser




On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 9:03 PM, Heinrich Mallison
<heinrich.mallison@googlemail.com> wrote:
> awesome, thanks
> ___________________________________
> Dr. Heinrich Mallison
> Abteilung Forschung
> Museum für Naturkunde - Leibniz-Institut
> für Evolutions- und Biodiversitätsforschung
> an der Humboldt-Universität zu Berlin
> Invalidenstrasse 43
> 10115 Berlin
> Office phone: +49 (0)30 2093 8764
> Email: heinrich.mallison@gmail.com
> _____________________________________
> Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.
> Gaius Julius Caeser
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 8:44 PM, Scott Hartman
> <skeletaldrawing@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Since you're so curious...
>>
>> Enjoy!
>>
>> -Scott
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 1:35 PM, Heinrich Mallison
>> <heinrich.mallison@googlemail.com> wrote:
>>> Well, Moser say that the type series contains diagnostic material,
>>> picks a lectotype (the sacrum), and show that the sacra of the
>>> Trossingen material w. skulls cannot be  distinguished. Thus, *all* is
>>> P. engelhardti.
>>>
>>> Peter Galton seems not to believe this, but Galton did show that all
>>> Trossingen and Halberstadt skulls are the same. He called them P.
>>> longiceps. So this seems to be a question of priority between two
>>> junior synonyms, unless the new article shows Moser wrong about the
>>> sacra.
>>> I am getting more and more curious.....
>>>
>>> :)
>>> H
>>> ___________________________________
>>> Dr. Heinrich Mallison
>>> Abteilung Forschung
>>> Museum für Naturkunde - Leibniz-Institut
>>> für Evolutions- und Biodiversitätsforschung
>>> an der Humboldt-Universität zu Berlin
>>> Invalidenstrasse 43
>>> 10115 Berlin
>>> Office phone: +49 (0)30 2093 8764
>>> Email: heinrich.mallison@gmail.com
>>> _____________________________________
>>> Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.
>>> Gaius Julius Caeser
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 8:05 PM, Michael Lange <Michael.Lange@gmx.ch> wrote:
>>>> and, if P. erlenbergensis is valid, what material remains from P. 
>>>> engelhardti?
>>>>
>>>> The occurrence of P. erlenbergiensis should be (see p. 49):
>>>>
>>>> Various Middle-Late Norian (Late Triassic) formations, including the 
>>>> Trossingen (Baden-Württemberg, Germany), Knollenmergel (Niedersachsen and 
>>>> Sachsen-Anhalt, Germany), Obere Bunte Mergel (Aargau, Switzerland), Marnes 
>>>> Irisées Supérieures (Jura and Doubs, France), and Fleming Fjord (eastern 
>>>> Greenland) Formations (Galton and Upchurch, 2004).
>>>>
>>>> So can only the type and other material from Bavaria described by Moser 
>>>> (2004) be referred to P. engelhardti and is all the other material, 
>>>> especially from the mass-occurences in Trossingen, Halberstadt and Frick 
>>>> P. erlenbergiensis?
>>>>
>>>> Michael
>>>>
>>>> -------- Original-Nachricht --------
>>>>> Datum: Mon, 21 Nov 2011 19:37:57 +0100
>>>>> Von: Heinrich Mallison <heinrich.mallison@googlemail.com>
>>>>> An: bh480@scn.org
>>>>> CC: dinosaur@usc.edu
>>>>> Betreff: Re: Plateosaurus skull redescribed
>>>>
>>>>> that's really odd, because P. erlenbergensis is a junior synonym to P.
>>>>> engelhardti according to Moser 2003 based on the SACRUM - so the SKULL
>>>>> alone is not enough to resurrect P. erlenbergensis. There is, btw, no
>>>>> holo- or lectotype skull to compare to, so you need to deal with the
>>>>> sacrum.....
>>>>>
>>>>> I can't imagine that the new paper results from a mis- (or
>>>>> non-)reading of Moser 2003, as is otherwise often the case with German
>>>>> papers. There is an extensive English summary at the end that states,
>>>>> among other things:
>>>>>
>>>>> "Plateosaurus engel­hardti MEYER, 1837 includes the following
>>>>> subjective  junior synonyms: Dimodosaurus poligniensis,
>>>>> Gresslyosaurus robus­ tus, Gresslyosaurus torgeri, Pachysaurus ajax,
>>>>> Pachysaurus gi­ganteus; Pachysaurus magnus, Pachysaurus wetzelianus,
>>>>> Pla­ teosaurus erlenbergiensis, Plateosaurus longiceps, Plateosaurus
>>>>> plieningeri, Plateosaurus reinigeri, and Plateosaurus trossin­gensis."
>>>>>
>>>>> I *really* look forward to reading this one.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ___________________________________
>>>>> Dr. Heinrich Mallison
>>>>> Abteilung Forschung
>>>>> Museum für Naturkunde - Leibniz-Institut
>>>>> für Evolutions- und Biodiversitätsforschung
>>>>> an der Humboldt-Universität zu Berlin
>>>>> Invalidenstrasse 43
>>>>> 10115 Berlin
>>>>> Office phone: +49 (0)30 2093 8764
>>>>> Email: heinrich.mallison@gmail.com
>>>>> _____________________________________
>>>>> Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt.
>>>>> Gaius Julius Caeser
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 6:53 PM, bh480@scn.org <bh480@scn.org> wrote:
>>>>> > From: Ben Creisler
>>>>> > bh480@scn.org
>>>>> >
>>>>> > A new paper available through Bioone. The paper has not been posted yet
>>>>> for
>>>>> > free on the AMNH site.
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > Albert Prieto-Márquez and Mark A. Norell (2011)
>>>>> > Redescription of a Nearly Complete Skull of Plateosaurus (Dinosauria:
>>>>> > Sauropodomorpha) from the Late Triassic of Trossingen (Germany).
>>>>> > American Museum Novitates Number 3727 :1-58. 2011
>>>>> > doi: http://dx.doi.org/10.1206/3727.2
>>>>> > http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.1206/3727.2
>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>> > The nearly complete, disarticulated skull of AMNH FARB 6810, a specimen
>>>>> of
>>>>> > the basal sauropodomorph Plateosaurus collected in 1925 from the Norian
>>>>> > (Late Triassic) strata of the Knollenmergel beds of Trossingen
>>>>> (Germany),
>>>>> > is redescribed. This study supports referral of AMNH FARB 6810 to P.
>>>>> > erlenbergiensis on the basis of the following characters: occipital
>>>>> condyle
>>>>> > above level of parasphenoid; basisphenoid with transverse, subvertical
>>>>> > lamina extending between basipterygoid processes, with ventrally
>>>>> projecting
>>>>> > median process; and peglike process projecting medially from the middle
>>>>> of
>>>>> > the palatine. Furthermore, P. longiceps is regarded a junior synonym of
>>>>> P.
>>>>> > erlenbergiensis because the type specimen of the latter is diagnostic
>>>>> > (displaying the above-noted apomorphies of the braincase and palatine)
>>>>> and,
>>>>> > chronologically, P. erlenbergiensis has priority over P. longiceps.
>>>>> >
>>>>> > --------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>> > mail2web.com – Enhanced email for the mobile individual based on
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>>>>> >
>>>>> >
>>>>
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>>
>>
>> --
>> Scott Hartman
>> Scientific Advisor/Technical Illustrator
>> (307) 921-9750
>> website: www.skeletaldrawing.com
>> blog: http://skeletaldrawing.blogspot.com/
>>
>