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Re: tiny-armed theropods



Such land rushes are done regularly in Botany.  Just put your name and the
newly coined taxon name on a genus and claim the genus and all of its
species in a marginally valid publication.

Then no matter what, all future workers have to cite your paper...even when
pointing out what a blockhead you are.

Cheers...

        Clair Ossian





On 10/12/11 8:11 AM, "Mike Taylor" <mike@indexdata.com> wrote:

> On 12 October 2011 14:07, Matthew Martyniuk <martyniuk@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Except that the ICZN doesn't govern any names above family level.
> 
> True enough.  In point of fact there seems to be NO code that governs
> the non-PN use of name such as Therizinosauria.  Still, tradition
> treats them AS THOUGH they were governed by the ICZN.
> 
>> It seems odd that a code would explicitly reject precedence of name over
>> precedence of definition. What's to stop a huge land rush to supplant
>> existing names and trump centuries old author priority in favor of
>> ones self?
> 
> The PhyloCode's rules for citing a name say to give the name of the
> nominal author, not that of the definitional author.  So after the
> PhyloCode companion volume FINALLY comes out with its phylogenetic
> definition of Sauropoda, it will still be Sauropoda Marsh 1878, not
> Sauropoda Taylor et al. 200x (for some value of x > 10).  This is as
> it should be, of course.
> 
> Nevertheness, there is some fear of a PhyloCode land-rush.  I don't
> see it happening, though: everyone knows the difference between
> properly worked definitions and land-grabs, and no-one would do their
> reputation any good with the latter.
> 
> -- Mike.
> 
> 
>> 
>> Matt
>> 
>> On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 8:52 AM, Mike Taylor <mike@indexdata.com> wrote:
>>> No; the PhyloCode only governs names when used as clade names.  So in
>>> the scenario you mention, the clade name Therizinosauria will have
>>> priority over Segnosauria (under the governance of the PhyloCode); and
>>> the rank-based name Segnosauria will continue to have priority over
>>> Therizinosauria (under the ICZN).  So you would choose which name to
>>> use on the basis of whether you were talking about clades or
>>> rank-based names.
>>> 
>>> -- Mike.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On 12 October 2011 13:31, Matthew Martyniuk <martyniuk@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> If I understand the PhyloCode correctly, date of definition does not
>>>> take priority over date of naming. So even if Therizinosauria
>>>> (Russell, 1997) is formally defined and registered as the stem
>>>> (Therizinosaurus > Passer), even if Segnosauria (Barsbold, 1980) is
>>>> *later* formally defined and registered as (Segnosaurus > Passer),
>>>> assuming this is the same group, Segnosauria will still have priority
>>>> because the name was coined before Therizinosauria, despite the fact
>>>> that Therizinosauria was defined/registered first.
>>>> 
>>>> The ICPN also does away with the principle of coordination, so as far
>>>> as the ICPN is concerned, Therizinosauroidea was coined by Russell &
>>>> Dong 1994, not Maleev 1954.
>>>> 
>>>> Matt
>>>> 
>>>> On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 2:58 AM, Jaime Headden <qi_leong@hotmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>>   *Segnosauria* is not defined as a taxon in a Family-level rank, and thus
>>>>> has no bearing with relation to *Therizinosauroidea*, the name used in
>>>>> support for *Therizinosauridae*, etc., which does have priority over
>>>>> *Segnosauridae*. *Therizinosauroidea* was used to supplant *Segnosauria*
>>>>> as the name of value for the stem, and has been kept that way based solely
>>>>> on use and the sense of "whomever defines it first shall have that name be
>>>>> used (even if the definition change) forever!"
>>>>> 
>>>>>   It's silly that, until *Therizinosauria* become used more recently,
>>>>> *Segnosauria* could still be used for the group. But this hasn't been the
>>>>> case for workers discussing therizinosaur total group, and I think the
>>>>> name will fall to disfavor unless somehow resurrected.
>>>>> 
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> 
>>>>>  Jaime A. Headden
>>>>>  The Bite Stuff (site v2)
>>>>>  http://qilong.wordpress.com/
>>>>> 
>>>>> "Innocent, unbiased observation is a myth." --- P.B. Medawar (1969)
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> "Ever since man first left his cave and met a stranger with a
>>>>> different language and a new way of looking at things, the human race
>>>>> has had a dream: to kill him, so we don't have to learn his language or
>>>>> his new way of looking at things." --- Zapp Brannigan (Beast With a
>>>>> Billion Backs)
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>>> ----------------------------------------
>>>>>> Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 16:28:32 +1100
>>>>>> From: tijawi@gmail.com
>>>>>> To: dinosaur@usc.edu
>>>>>> Subject: Re: tiny-armed theropods
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> David Marjanovic <david.marjanovic@gmx.at> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> ...although, in ornithomimo- and segnosaurs alike, the head + neck is
>>>>>>> still
>>>>>>> longer than the forelimbs.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> The necks of ornithomimosaurs and therizinosaurs are decidedly long.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> And yeah... I also prefer the name 'segnosaurs' over 'therizinosaurs'.
>>>>>> ;-) But I guess the latter has priority.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Jason Brougham <jaseb@amnh.org> wrote:
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> I see, so you are suggesting that all theropods would benefit from
>>>>>>> reduction of their pectoral limbs if
>>>>>>> they could find a way to do without arms in feeding and brooding and
>>>>>>> whatnot, because it would
>>>>>>> make them more agile.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> This was the essence of Carrier et al's (2001) paper on rotational
>>>>>> inertia in theropods (J Exp Biol. 2204: 3917-26). The resulting
>>>>>> agility while turning might also have driven the evolution of the
>>>>>> forelimb-folding mechanism in maniraptorans, conferred by the
>>>>>> semilunate carpal joint. (I don't buy GSP's notion that the
>>>>>> semilunate carpal evolved as a flight-related/flapping feature.)
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> It's just that dispensing with the arms' uses must have been impossible
>>>>>>> for many theropods,
>>>>>>> possibly for a large or even an innumerable set of interacting reasons.
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> I've wondered about this. It is likely that bipedality preceded
>>>>>> predatory behavior in dinosaur evolution. The study of Martinez et
>>>>>> al. (2011) further indicates that the ancestral body plan for
>>>>>> dinosaurs included a proportionately long forelimb (~45% hindlimb
>>>>>> length) and a sharp-clawed manus capable of hyperextension. Theropods
>>>>>> show a shift to a more raptorial/grasping manus (elongate penultimate
>>>>>> phalanges of manus, etc). Nevertheless, it appears to me that once
>>>>>> dinosaurs became bipedal it was a case of: "So, what do we do now with
>>>>>> these appendages?"
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Cheers
>>>>>> 
>>>>>> Tim
>>>>> 
>>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>>