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Re: Germany then and now



The alternative to political correctness is bigotry. 

PC is no more than consideration for others.


On Sep 29, 2011, at 3:27 PM, Paul P wrote:

> This thread and some of the responses (not all are below) 
> remind me of Facebook:  there's a "like" button but no 
> "dislike" button. 
> 
> Political correctness has so permeated our society that 
> it's become almost impossible to discuss or even mention 
> anything that isn't "nice" and "likable". People are 
> programmed to pick up on keywords, and if any disallowed 
> words are encountered, the reader immediately goes into 
> "dislike" mode, stops reading, and skims the remainder of 
> the article/letter/email with extreme prejudice looking 
> for any other disallowed words. 
> 
> I find that more distasteful than the words themselves. 
> Btw, i'm part German. 
> 
> 
> --- On Thu, 9/29/11, Jason Brougham <jaseb@amnh.org> wrote:
> 
>> From: Jason Brougham <jaseb@amnh.org>
>> Subject: Re: Germany then and now
>> To: qi_leong@hotmail.com
>> Cc: "Greg Paul" <gsp1954@aol.com>, "Dinosaur Mailing List" <dinosaur@usc.edu>
>> Date: Thursday, September 29, 2011, 12:44 PM
>> 
>> We can't be insulting whole
>> ethnicities on this list. Let's be civil.
>> 
>> Let's not blame everyone in a language group for the
>> political acts of people 60 or more years ago. Let's not
>> assign personalities or tendencies to someone based on their
>> national origin. 
>> 
>> Evolutionary theory has been distorted in the past to fit
>> supremacist and capitalist ideologies, that is a legitimate
>> field to debate: wherever we suspect that work done in these
>> periods was distorted to fit political agendas.
>> 
>> It is not legitimate to stereotype all Germans as precise.
>> I can find you some imprecise Germans and some super
>> precise... I don't know, hippies? Americans? Spaniards?...
>> if you want me to. Now, I have a great grandfather Friedrich
>> and so I use the K word sometimes, but its different when we
>> call each other that. But I don't just drop it in public
>> without explanation. 
>> 
>> I will also remind you of anti-German violence in the
>> United States during both world wars. Whole German language
>> libraries were burned.
>> 
>> I am as antifascist a person as you will ever meet, 
> litical tendency was not some innate flaw
>> in some "German character". It runs through all societies.
>> 
>> 
>> On Sep 29, 2011, at 1:30 PM, Jaime Headden wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>>    Where in the Mary Anning does one
>> think that paleos are unaware of our deep history? We are
>> familiar with historical elements of collection and are
>> reminded of this in sharp detail any time anyone has to back
>> track through a fieldbook from the 20s or before the
>> beginning of the last century, who was in any way familiar
>> with the collection programs in the south of England, in
>> what is now Belgium and in northern Italy, collectors and
>> prospectors travelling to European colonies abroad and
>> arriving in Java and southern Africa. You think that we are
>> somehow ignorant?
>>> 
>>>    Do you seriously think this is an
>> adequate defense of your use of these throwaway terms, or
>> your bigotry?
>>> 
>>>    I call your bluff, Greg: The use of
>> the terms "Kraut" and "fascist" have in no way an element of
>> "paleo history" to them in connection to Werner Janensch or
>> Willi Hennig, regardless of whether they were members of the
>> Nazis, and are only bigoted in the purest form, and this
>> post an inadequate way to cover your tail on this score.
>> It's come up before and you've been called on it before. If
>> you want to discuss this, write a book and place these
>> remarks (with evidence!) in there. Maybe some of us might
>> actually pick it up. Until then, I think, it doesn't belong
>> on this list.
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> 
>>>   Jaime A. Headden
>>>   The Bite Stuff (site v2)
>>>   http://qilong.wordpress.com/
>>> 
>>> "Innocent, unbiased observation is a myth." --- P.B.
>> Medawar (1969)
>>> 
>>> 
>>> "Ever since man first left his cave and met a stranger
>> with a
>>> different language and a new way of looking at things,
>> the human race
>>> has had a dream: to kill him, so we don't have to
>> learn his language or
>>> his new way of looking at things." --- Zapp Brannigan
>> (Beast With a Billion Backs)
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -------------------------------
> m: GSP1954@aol.com
>>>> To: dinosaur@usc.edu
>>>> Subject: Re: Germany then and now
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> In a message dated 9/29/11 11:21:03 AM, paleeoguy@gmail.com
>> writes:
>>>> 
>>>> << Get your measurements, Greg. That`s what
>> this list is for. Please go
>>>> 
>>>> to WWII forum if you want to rag on 20th century
>> Germany. >>
>>>> 
>>>> Although I can understand where some of this is
>> coming from, in the end I
>>>> disagree. There is a real danger to popular paleo
>> pretending that the field
>>>> has in a sense no deep history outside the rather
>> cheerful tale we are
>>>> normally presented. It is rather like how it is
>> only recently being acknowledged
>>>> that even the NE US was heavily dependent upon
>> slavery until the early 1800s.
>>>> I had no clue that the White House was built
>> largely by slaves until fairly
>>>> recently, or that early NYC was also built to a
>> great extent by bonded
>>>> humans.
>>>> 
>>>> Of course this list can include extensive
>> discussions on paleohistory,
>>>> especially the "fun & entertaining side" such
>> as the famous Marsh-Cope feud and
>>>> what it was like to work at Garden Park and Como
>> Bluff in the 1880s. But
>>>> what happened at Tendaguru? It was the largest
>> dinosaur "mining" operation that
>>>> I know of, involving hundreds of colonized
>> laborers. What circumstances
>>>> were they operating under? Where they happy to
>> have the pay however minimal I
>>>> suspect it was? Or were they in some way
>> discontented or forced by the German
>>>> colonizers? How did it connect with the notorious
>> genocides underway in
>>>> Africa at that time? And what happened when the
>> Brits took over? Where they
>>>> nicer, or worse? That the fate of all these
>> Africans has been largely ignored
>>>> in favor of the western oriented focus of
>> paleohistory is not to the credit
>>>> of the paleocommunity.
>>>> 
>>>> For example, is the circumstances that the
>> Africans worked at Tendaguru
>>>> covered at the new HMN exhibit? If not it should
>> be researched and covered at
>>>> the
> This sort of thing has practical
>> implications for modern paleo.
>>>> By treating the past efforts of colonized peoples
>> with more attention and
>>>> respect the field may enjoy better relations with
>> some current governments
>>>> where resentment against the colonial period
>> remains strong. Just waving it away
>>>> as being typical of those olden days is not the
>> best idea PR wise.
>>>> 
>>>> Likewise that some key German paleos were in deep
>> with the Nazis is fair
>>>> game for discussion. What I would better like to
>> know is who did what and
>>>> when. It's worth a book assumming it has not yet
>> been done -- better than yet
>>>> another tome on Marsh & Cope.
>>>> 
>>>> When I used the term Kraut for some Nazi era
>> paleos I was just venting a
>>>> little frustation about how bad some of the figure
>> scaling is in the
>>>> Palaeontolographica publication figures and text
>> -- the Germans are supposed to be so
>>>> meticulous after all -- and I did not expect any
>> notice of it. But in
>>>> hindsight the subject has greater import.
>> Paleontology is not just about
>>>> measurements and fossils, it is part of the
>> greater human story for better or for
>>>> worse.
>>>> 
>>>> GSPaul</HTML>
>>>    
>>         
>>           
>>   
>> 
>> Jason Brougham
>> Senior Principal Preparator
>> American Museum of Natural History
>> jaseb@amnh.org
>> (212) 496 3544
>> 
>> 
>> 

Jason Brougham
Senior Principal Preparator
American Museum of Natural History
jaseb@amnh.org
(212) 496 3544