[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index][Subject Index][Author Index]

Re: First fossils of Tyrannosaurus (as Dynamosaurus) to be displayed at British Natural History Museum



Quite so. The simpler explanation--if you've eliminated intraspecific
variation--would be a new taxon.

In the living world hybrids are easier to recognize, especially when they
are very distinct from either of the two parent taxa (e.g., Pseudorca x
Tursiops "wholphins" or Ambylrhynchus x Conolophus iguanas).

On Sun, September 1, 2013 8:23 pm, Ronald Orenstein wrote:
> How on earth, assuming two populations were in contact and interbreeding,
> would you be able to tell an occasional or unusual hybrid from either a
> specimen from some point on a clinal intergrade or a simple variation of
> one stock that resembled the other in more ways than did the type of that
> stock, based on a single fossil?  I suspect it would be impossible.
>  
> Ronald Orenstein
> 1825 Shady Creek Court
> Mississauga, ON L5L 3W2
> Canada
> ronorenstein.blogspot.com
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Thomas R. Holtz, Jr." <tholtz@umd.edu>
> To: wdm1949@hotmail.com
> Cc: "bcreisler@gmail.com" <bcreisler@gmail.com>; DML <dinosaur@usc.edu>
> Sent: Monday, September 2, 2013 7:50:17 AM
> Subject: RE: First fossils of Tyrannosaurus (as Dynamosaurus) to be
> displayed at British Natural History Museum
>
> Tyrannosaurus rex and Tarbosaurus bataar lived millions of years apart:
> very latest Maastrichtian vs. early Maastrichtian. It is as likely as a
> hybrid between modern humans and Sahelanthropus.
>
> That said, had they encountered, quite likely that if you had a time
> machine they COULD hybridize. Hybrids are not uncommon in nature. Hell,
> despite what everyone is taught in BIOL101, *fertile* hybrids are actually
> not uncommon in nature.
>
> As to matching up specimens: the typological folks out there have to learn
> to accept that you are obliged to eliminate the following prior to
> asserting a new taxon (or in this case, a hybrid):
> * Individual variation: no two individuals are identical
> * Ontogenetic variation: no two growth stages are identical
> * Sexual variation
> * Geographic variation
> * Stratigraphic variation
> and the biggie after individual variation,
> * Taphonomic variation
>
> On Sun, September 1, 2013 2:50 pm, dale mcinnes wrote:
>> On another note ..
>>
>> Does anyone still think about possible hybridization between T. rex
>> and T.[Tarbosaurus] bataar ?!? I can't seem to remember but .. I seem
>> to recall that at least one good specimen [? skull] did not match up
>> within the variations ascibed to all other T. rex specimens.
>>
>> Perhaps Thomas could enlighten me/ us on this one ?!?
>>
>> I'll check out that other publication Thomas. Thanks.
>>
>>
>> ----------------------------------------
>>> Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2013 11:28:23 -0700
>>> From: bcreisler@gmail.com
>>> To: tholtz@umd.edu; dinosaur@usc.edu
>>> Subject: Re: First fossils of Tyrannosaurus (as Dynamosaurus) to be
>>> displayed at British Natural History Museum
>>>
>>> From: Ben Creisler
>>> bcreisler@gmail.com
>>>
>>> Another slight inaccuracy to note: "it remains the only T. rex fossil
>>> to exist outside of the United States." Of course, T. rex has been
>>> found in Canada as well as the United States:
>>>
>>> http://okanagansisss.wordpress.com/2007/10/13/tyrannosaurus-rex-the-canadian-specimens/
>>>
>>>
>>> To be fair, the specimens of Manospondylus (a single vertebra) and
>>> "Ornithomimus" grandis (some foot bones) would likely not be
>>> considered diagnostic by modern standards. The type specimen for
>>> Dynamosaurus (minus the ankylosaur armor) would by itself be an
>>> acceptable type specimen by modern standards.
>>>
>>> On Sun, Sep 1, 2013 at 11:11 AM, Thomas R. Holtz, Jr. <tholtz@umd.edu>
>>> wrote:
>>>> Dale beat me to it. Yes, both Cope's Manospondylus type and Marsh's
>>>> Lancian specimens of Ornithomimus grandis are T. rex specimens that
>>>> predate the Dynamosaurus type.
>>>>
>>>> As for the Mano quarry, check out:
>>>> Breithaupt, B.H., E.H. Southwell & N.A. Matthews. 2008. Wyoming's
>>>> <i>Dynamosaurus imperiosus</i> and other early discoveries of
>>>> <i>Tyrannosaurus rex</i> in the Rocky Mountain West. in the Indiana
>>>> Univ.
>>>> Press Tyrannosaurus rex: the Tyrant King volume.
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, September 1, 2013 1:55 pm, dale mcinnes wrote:
>>>>> So .. whatever happened to Manospondylus gigas ?!?
>>>>>
>>>>> I heard that the original quarry was relocated and that the large
>>>>> centrum
>>>>> taken by Brown was indeed part of that [old/ new] specimen. Any
>>>>> updates
>>>>> ?!?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2013 09:18:29 -0700
>>>>>> From: bcreisler@gmail.com
>>>>>> To: dinosaur@usc.edu
>>>>>> Subject: First fossils of Tyrannosaurus (as Dynamosaurus) to be
>>>>>> displayed at British Natural History Museum
>>>>>>
>>>>>> From: Ben Creisler
>>>>>> bcreisler@gmail.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> A news story with video about the historically first specimen of
>>>>>> Tyrannosaurus found and later sold to the British Natural History
>>>>>> Museum. This was the specimen originally named Dynamosaurus
>>>>>> imperiosus
>>>>>> by Osborn.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/dinosaurs/10278054/How-Tyrannosaurus-rex-was-nearly-more-of-a-mouthful.html
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thomas R. Holtz, Jr.
>>>> Email: tholtz@umd.edu Phone: 301-405-4084
>>>> Office: Centreville 1216
>>>> Senior Lecturer, Vertebrate Paleontology
>>>> Dept. of Geology, University of Maryland
>>>> http://www.geol.umd.edu/~tholtz/
>>>> Fax: 301-314-9661
>>>>
>>>> Faculty Director, Science & Global Change Program, College Park
>>>> Scholars
>>>> http://www.geol.umd.edu/sgc
>>>> Fax: 301-314-9843
>>>>
>>>> Mailing Address: Thomas R. Holtz, Jr.
>>>> Department of Geology
>>>> Building 237, Room 1117
>>>> University of Maryland
>>>> College Park, MD 20742 USA
>>
>
>
> Thomas R. Holtz, Jr.
> Email: tholtz@umd.edu    Phone: 301-405-4084
> Office: Centreville 1216
> Senior Lecturer, Vertebrate Paleontology
> Dept. of Geology, University of Maryland
> http://www.geol.umd.edu/~tholtz/
> Fax: 301-314-9661
>
> Faculty Director, Science & Global Change Program, College Park Scholars
> http://www.geol.umd.edu/sgc
> Fax: 301-314-9843
>
> Mailing Address:    Thomas R. Holtz, Jr.
>             Department of Geology
>             Building 237, Room 1117
>             University of Maryland
>             College Park, MD 20742 USA
>
>


Thomas R. Holtz, Jr.
Email: tholtz@umd.edu   Phone: 301-405-4084
Office: Centreville 1216
Senior Lecturer, Vertebrate Paleontology
Dept. of Geology, University of Maryland
http://www.geol.umd.edu/~tholtz/
Fax: 301-314-9661

Faculty Director, Science & Global Change Program, College Park Scholars
http://www.geol.umd.edu/sgc
Fax: 301-314-9843

Mailing Address:        Thomas R. Holtz, Jr.
                        Department of Geology
                        Building 237, Room 1117
                        University of Maryland
                        College Park, MD 20742 USA