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RE: First fossils of Tyrannosaurus (as Dynamosaurus) to be displayed at British Natural History Museum



I'm not comprehending something here. If T. rex was indeed
isolated on Larimedia .. that would suggest no palaeogeographical
interconnection with the Siberian land mass at all would it not??
This would effectively end any such discussion presumably on T. rex
hybridization.

If not ..

What exactly existed over there in Siberia during the late Maastrichtian 
pertaining to large tarbosaur-sized tyrants ?? 

> Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2013 09:15:26 -0400
> From: tholtz@umd.edu
> To: ron.orenstein@rogers.com
> CC: tholtz@umd.edu; wdm1949@hotmail.com
> Subject: Re: First fossils of Tyrannosaurus (as Dynamosaurus) to be displayed 
> at British Natural History Museum
> 
> Quite so. The simpler explanation--if you've eliminated intraspecific
> variation--would be a new taxon.
> 
> In the living world hybrids are easier to recognize, especially when they
> are very distinct from either of the two parent taxa (e.g., Pseudorca x
> Tursiops "wholphins" or Ambylrhynchus x Conolophus iguanas).
> 
> On Sun, September 1, 2013 8:23 pm, Ronald Orenstein wrote:
>> How on earth, assuming two populations were in contact and interbreeding,
>> would you be able to tell an occasional or unusual hybrid from either a
>> specimen from some point on a clinal intergrade or a simple variation of
>> one stock that resembled the other in more ways than did the type of that
>> stock, based on a single fossil? I suspect it would be impossible.
>> 
>> Ronald Orenstein
>> 1825 Shady Creek Court
>> Mississauga, ON L5L 3W2
>> Canada
>> ronorenstein.blogspot.com
>>
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Thomas R. Holtz, Jr." <tholtz@umd.edu>
>> To: wdm1949@hotmail.com
>> Cc: "bcreisler@gmail.com" <bcreisler@gmail.com>; DML <dinosaur@usc.edu>
>> Sent: Monday, September 2, 2013 7:50:17 AM
>> Subject: RE: First fossils of Tyrannosaurus (as Dynamosaurus) to be
>> displayed at British Natural History Museum
>>
>> Tyrannosaurus rex and Tarbosaurus bataar lived millions of years apart:
>> very latest Maastrichtian vs. early Maastrichtian. It is as likely as a
>> hybrid between modern humans and Sahelanthropus.
>>
>> That said, had they encountered, quite likely that if you had a time
>> machine they COULD hybridize. Hybrids are not uncommon in nature. Hell,
>> despite what everyone is taught in BIOL101, *fertile* hybrids are actually
>> not uncommon in nature.
>>
>> As to matching up specimens: the typological folks out there have to learn
>> to accept that you are obliged to eliminate the following prior to
>> asserting a new taxon (or in this case, a hybrid):
>> * Individual variation: no two individuals are identical
>> * Ontogenetic variation: no two growth stages are identical
>> * Sexual variation
>> * Geographic variation
>> * Stratigraphic variation
>> and the biggie after individual variation,
>> * Taphonomic variation
>>
>> On Sun, September 1, 2013 2:50 pm, dale mcinnes wrote:
>>> On another note ..
>>>
>>> Does anyone still think about possible hybridization between T. rex
>>> and T.[Tarbosaurus] bataar ?!? I can't seem to remember but .. I seem
>>> to recall that at least one good specimen [? skull] did not match up
>>> within the variations ascibed to all other T. rex specimens.
>>>
>>> Perhaps Thomas could enlighten me/ us on this one ?!?
>>>
>>> I'll check out that other publication Thomas. Thanks.
>>>
>>>
>>> ----------------------------------------
>>>> Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2013 11:28:23 -0700
>>>> From: bcreisler@gmail.com
>>>> To: tholtz@umd.edu; dinosaur@usc.edu
>>>> Subject: Re: First fossils of Tyrannosaurus (as Dynamosaurus) to be
>>>> displayed at British Natural History Museum
>>>>
>>>> From: Ben Creisler
>>>> bcreisler@gmail.com
>>>>
>>>> Another slight inaccuracy to note: "it remains the only T. rex fossil
>>>> to exist outside of the United States." Of course, T. rex has been
>>>> found in Canada as well as the United States:
>>>>
>>>> http://okanagansisss.wordpress.com/2007/10/13/tyrannosaurus-rex-the-canadian-specimens/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> To be fair, the specimens of Manospondylus (a single vertebra) and
>>>> "Ornithomimus" grandis (some foot bones) would likely not be
>>>> considered diagnostic by modern standards. The type specimen for
>>>> Dynamosaurus (minus the ankylosaur armor) would by itself be an
>>>> acceptable type specimen by modern standards.
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Sep 1, 2013 at 11:11 AM, Thomas R. Holtz, Jr. <tholtz@umd.edu>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>> Dale beat me to it. Yes, both Cope's Manospondylus type and Marsh's
>>>>> Lancian specimens of Ornithomimus grandis are T. rex specimens that
>>>>> predate the Dynamosaurus type.
>>>>>
>>>>> As for the Mano quarry, check out:
>>>>> Breithaupt, B.H., E.H. Southwell & N.A. Matthews. 2008. Wyoming's
>>>>> <i>Dynamosaurus imperiosus</i> and other early discoveries of
>>>>> <i>Tyrannosaurus rex</i> in the Rocky Mountain West. in the Indiana
>>>>> Univ.
>>>>> Press Tyrannosaurus rex: the Tyrant King volume.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, September 1, 2013 1:55 pm, dale mcinnes wrote:
>>>>>> So .. whatever happened to Manospondylus gigas ?!?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I heard that the original quarry was relocated and that the large
>>>>>> centrum
>>>>>> taken by Brown was indeed part of that [old/ new] specimen. Any
>>>>>> updates
>>>>>> ?!?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2013 09:18:29 -0700
>>>>>>> From: bcreisler@gmail.com
>>>>>>> To: dinosaur@usc.edu
>>>>>>> Subject: First fossils of Tyrannosaurus (as Dynamosaurus) to be
>>>>>>> displayed at British Natural History Museum
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> From: Ben Creisler
>>>>>>> bcreisler@gmail.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A news story with video about the historically first specimen of
>>>>>>> Tyrannosaurus found and later sold to the British Natural History
>>>>>>> Museum. This was the specimen originally named Dynamosaurus
>>>>>>> imperiosus
>>>>>>> by Osborn.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/dinosaurs/10278054/How-Tyrannosaurus-rex-was-nearly-more-of-a-mouthful.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thomas R. Holtz, Jr.
>>>>> Email: tholtz@umd.edu Phone: 301-405-4084
>>>>> Office: Centreville 1216
>>>>> Senior Lecturer, Vertebrate Paleontology
>>>>> Dept. of Geology, University of Maryland
>>>>> http://www.geol.umd.edu/~tholtz/
>>>>> Fax: 301-314-9661
>>>>>
>>>>> Faculty Director, Science & Global Change Program, College Park
>>>>> Scholars
>>>>> http://www.geol.umd.edu/sgc
>>>>> Fax: 301-314-9843
>>>>>
>>>>> Mailing Address: Thomas R. Holtz, Jr.
>>>>> Department of Geology
>>>>> Building 237, Room 1117
>>>>> University of Maryland
>>>>> College Park, MD 20742 USA
>>>
>>
>>
>> Thomas R. Holtz, Jr.
>> Email: tholtz@umd.edu Phone: 301-405-4084
>> Office: Centreville 1216
>> Senior Lecturer, Vertebrate Paleontology
>> Dept. of Geology, University of Maryland
>> http://www.geol.umd.edu/~tholtz/
>> Fax: 301-314-9661
>>
>> Faculty Director, Science & Global Change Program, College Park Scholars
>> http://www.geol.umd.edu/sgc
>> Fax: 301-314-9843
>>
>> Mailing Address: Thomas R. Holtz, Jr.
>> Department of Geology
>> Building 237, Room 1117
>> University of Maryland
>> College Park, MD 20742 USA
>>
>>
> 
> 
> Thomas R. Holtz, Jr.
> Email: tholtz@umd.edu Phone: 301-405-4084
> Office: Centreville 1216
> Senior Lecturer, Vertebrate Paleontology
> Dept. of Geology, University of Maryland
> http://www.geol.umd.edu/~tholtz/
> Fax: 301-314-9661
> 
> Faculty Director, Science & Global Change Program, College Park Scholars
> http://www.geol.umd.edu/sgc
> Fax: 301-314-9843
> 
> Mailing Address: Thomas R. Holtz, Jr.
> Department of Geology
> Building 237, Room 1117
> University of Maryland
> College Park, MD 20742 USA